Design Principles Pod
Architecture. A hot topic, a buzz word, a realm for the rich and famous, or the thing that your step uncle does? We will be unpacking the good, the bad and the downright reality of the architectural and construction industry. With insights from industry professionals and personal anecdotes from our three hosts Ben, Gerard and Sam, you will be given a look behind the closed pages of those fancy looking moleskins. Tune in and redline out.
Design Principles Pod
Mass Timber Construction: A Woody Renaissance
Step into the revolutionary world of mass timber construction with our enlightening conversation featuring Jordan Robinson, Head of Business Development at X-Lam. What begins as a reunion of old architecture school friends quickly transforms into a masterclass on how engineered timber is reshaping our built environment.
Remember when timber was just for stick framing houses? Those days are rapidly disappearing as Cross-Laminated Timber (CLT) and other mass timber products demonstrate capabilities that rival—and sometimes surpass—traditional concrete and steel construction. Jordan walks us through the remarkable journey of how small pieces of timber, often considered waste in conventional lumber processing, are transformed into structural panels capable of supporting buildings up to 10 stories tall.
The conversation shatters common misconceptions about timber construction. Far from being a fire hazard, mass timber chars at predictable rates, allowing engineers to design for specific fire ratings. And while acoustic performance requires thoughtful detailing, solutions exist that make timber buildings comfortable for occupants. Perhaps most surprising is the sustainability story—from the manufacturing process that utilizes timber offcuts to the carbon sequestration benefits, mass timber offers a compelling alternative to high-carbon materials.
What truly captivated us was learning about the seamless integration between digital design, manufacturing, and construction. The ability to model a structure digitally, send the files directly to CNC machines, and then rapidly assemble precision-cut components on site represents a fundamental shift in how we approach building. As Jordan aptly put it, "You can build ball gowns or you can build T-shirts with timber"—meaning the technology supports both stunning showcase projects and practical everyday applications.
Ready to reimagine what's possible in construction? Whether you're an architect, builder, developer, or simply curious about sustainable building practices, this episode offers valuable insights into a material that's been used for millennia but is now being deployed in revolutionary new ways. Join us as we explore how mass timber might just be the future of architecture in New Zealand and beyond.
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In the depths of winter, there is no better time than now to spice things up With spice and sweetness. In harmony, parrot Dog's new core range, ginger beer, is brewed with real ginger juice to be refreshingly satisfying, a little naughty and very nice. Welcome to this week's episode where we dive into the world of mass timber construction with our guest and good friend, jordan Robinson from X-Lam. Join us as we explore the innovative potential of timber and architecture, its sustainability benefits and the exciting projects pushing the boundaries of design. Whether you're an industry professional or just curious about the future of building, this conversation promises insights and inspiration. Jordan's detailed knowledge around CLT and general passion for timber shines through, and it is hard not to want to hug a tree after listening to this episode. Let's dive in. Thanks for jumping onto the podcast this week, jordan. So for listeners out there that don't know, jordan Robinson went to university with both Ben and I.
Speaker 2:It was in the same. You guys were in the same Martins group, weren't you? Yeah, yeah, Just Ben, yeah. I grew up in a marriage Nice, the band the Myth master's group, aren't you? Yeah, just Ben, yeah.
Speaker 3:I grew up in a marriage. Nice Abandoned the myth. That's right, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:As me and Ben went down the light side, jordan jumped over to the dark side. And what's your role now, george? Head of development, or something for Ericsson?
Speaker 3:Yeah, don't get bogged down on titles, Sammy, but, yeah, head of business development. So it's sort of the pre-construction side of the X-San business, which is quite cool. Get to use a lot of the skills that we learned back in the day at architecture school and apply them on a timber-focused yeah, more timber-focused day-to-day, which is something that I obviously enjoy.
Speaker 1:Nice. The reason we've got jules on for the for the chat this week is because we want to just know a little bit more about mass timber construction. Really, I'd say that it's still. You guys might may have your differing views on this, but I'd say that it's still very much in its infancy. In new zealand, particularly in the residential sector. I'm starting to make a few movements commercially, but I think it's still got a long way to go and has a lot of potential and just kind of want to talk about sustainability aspect of it. That's design potential and all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely well, funny story actually about, uh, jordan and go on x lab. Really well, it was quite funny. So. So when we were, like you know, researching thesis subjects and we ended up getting sponsored by XM so XM was really new at the time, basically, you know, hadn't even started their factory, really they were just kind of in the early days of prototyping and so they ended up actually sponsoring us to one of the pre-FabNZ conferences, one of the first one in Taranaki, yeah, which was awesome.
Speaker 3:I don't know how we actually wrangled that to be honest, I think it was a guy marriage hookup, to be fair, but it was. Yeah, I was actually reminiscing over that this afternoon before this. Yeah, we're sitting in the back row and I think the Jack brothers who were the original founders of X-Flam were.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Robin yeah, robin and Ian, and I think they probably looked at both of us and thought these guys have no idea, and sort of pulled us down a direction of mass timber.
Speaker 2:So it was yeah, so I ended up building. You know well, I think it was the first residential CLT building in the country.
Speaker 1:It would have been.
Speaker 2:And you ended up working with them.
Speaker 1:I ended up working with them. Hey, look at that, they're in gun circle. Guns full circle, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that was actually my thesis, so I guess it kind of like came, you know, from the back of all those conversations that we were having with Jacks at the time.
Speaker 1:So I want to get you to that as a solution though.
Speaker 2:I think the reason that we were with Guy is like we were both really interested in timber construction. Essentially I'd had a lot of experience just building in general and had built a lot of stick framed houses and was really kind of searching for an alternative route, which was the mass, uh, the, the mass customization, which is like something that you can see and see and customize and go from computer cad um, you know, digital model straight through to essentially print it out and then erect it on site. So that's kind of what I was really interested in and that's what I did my thesis on, which was design. What did I call it? I can't remember now Design fabricate, I think something like that. It's been a while.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of parametric design in it as well, Ben.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were thinking about how to make it flexible, weren't we?
Speaker 3:Looking to expand it and obviously have the BIM component, which obviously wasn't necessarily new but it was still emerging into the form that we well, you guys more so use it on a daily basis now. But I suppose it was kind of that sort of merging of production technology and obviously computer software for design and it was, I mean it was. I remember that day we went to the X-LAM facility in Nelson, which is no longer in its current form, obviously X-Lam facility in Nelson, which is no longer in its current form, obviously X-Lam has now moved offshore to Australia. But it was like a wonderland. You know, this CNC machine the size of that, the machinery.
Speaker 3:You know it was immense and I guess there was this view at the time that you could do anything and you can. That machinery allows you to do so much from an off-site manufacturing and prefabrication perspective. So it was awesome to see and awesome to see it here in New Zealand, I guess.
Speaker 1:What is it about CLT and I guess that integration with BIM, though that makes it as a design solution or as a design material solution, that much better than just stick framing or any other form of construction, steel, concrete or anything like that. Look, I think it's probably. Let's put the sustainability aspect aside for now.
Speaker 3:I think probably its emergence has probably been more in alignment with the advancements in BIM technology, to be fair, especially in the southern hemisphere, and so it's part of that. You know, the capability of that design environment and the capability of technology that feeds into production and mass production for things like CLT and Blue Lamb and that sort of thing have probably risen at a similar time. I guess things like stick frame, those traditional sort of methods of construction are, I don't know, I suppose they're fairly well ingrained in sort of the fabric of design and construction, especially in New Zealand. Just it's, you know, industry standard, it's industry standard, it's known across, across you know the various sectors and it's if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But I suppose there's a level of innovation that some are looking for and I, and I think probably in this environment that we're in economically, people are looking to do things in a different way, which technology is obviously a great way to to achieve that, I suppose what is it about clt that gives you that flexibility?
Speaker 2:well, it's kind of like a one-stop shop, right. Yeah, you know, the thing with uh stick framing is it's actually quite a few components that make up one panel, whereas the great thing about clt and this is kind of what uh captivate, captivated me originally is essentially it's just like one big piece of timber that you can cut various elements out of.
Speaker 2:And nowadays there's even really clean details where you're essentially like putting the insulation on the exterior, creating like a jacket, so it's actually really well insulated as well. That whole concept of like okay, cool, we can make parametric models of these wall components, basically like turn that into like data, feed it to the machine and then cut it out and then send it to site, and I think like the original one we built and we were just students and we got a lot better after that but the original one we built, I think it took us like three days or something, so it was very fast, don't get me wrong. Um, the stick framing technology in this country has definitely improved a lot, but it's still like you got to lay out various components and you gotta, uh, stick to the. You know 3604, the building code, whereas, yeah, I don't know something about that big slab of timber and aesthetically, the yeah, just really really liked the.
Speaker 1:yeah, I like that I like that materiality well, you know that really raw materiality nature of it. Is it still to and this may be my naivety, or maybe just lack of understanding of how far you can push this, but is it still essentially like bound to an X and Y axis as a material? Can you this guy's harkening back to Gerard, our conversation with Gerard last week about hydroforming Can you also like steam form it as well? Can you create? Can you get the Z-axis into it at all? Or is it more? You can do that by lattice work and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, look, in terms of the CLT component, absolutely it's very much a monolithic construction method, so panelized I mean, if you throw design and money at anything you can make it happen. It's not commonplace. But I suppose in terms of that, that sort of 3d component that you're talking about there and actually moving away from just a 2d format and glulam and lvl are probably more akin to that where there's a lot more sort of scope in terms of design for complex geometries and that sort of thing and high intensity machining. In terms of clt, look we, in terms of mass timber as a whole, it's all kind of one of the same family, but I think that very bespoke nature generally lends itself to glulam and LVL.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say that was going to be my next question, like what's the difference between LVL, glulam and CLT?
Speaker 2:One of the great things, though. So the way that CLT is made is, essentially it's a run of varying lengths of timber that are just gauged to the same dimensions and are finger jointed together. So when they're joint together, it's basically just like an endless cycle, an endless run of timber. Then it's chopped to the right length and then obviously, like the, it's kind of, one layer goes down, then a adjacent layer is glued down, then another adjacent layer, and that sort of thing. So that's how you get that cross lamination, but it's actually, yeah, the glue that gives it all the strength. So it's quite cool. I really always quite liked how it's just made up of, like those waist lengths that are never used in the industry, so nothing, you know anything that's under 2.4 meters or 1.2 or whatever. It's all just little bits and timber kind of joint together and recycled, essentially.
Speaker 2:So always kind of liked that component about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, ben. I mean you look at most CLT manufacturers around the world.
Speaker 3:Often they not always, but often they have very strong alignment with sawmills and that sort of thing Because, as Ben's alluded to there the recipe, if you like, in terms of those alternating laminations they're not always the same strength class of timber.
Speaker 3:So typically and this is a very basic description of it, but typically in terms of the spanning capabilities, if it's a three, five or seven layer, it gives obviously considerable benefits in terms of the primary direction, so the primary being the direction that the lamellas are spanning, and then the alternate, the cross-lamination component is generally a lower grade fibre because it's doing less generally in sawmills. You know, especially in new zealand here radiated pine we get a lot of sg is pretty standard for the um residential framing market and so as a result there's typically a lot of low grade fiber that comes out of the recovery of a log yeah, right you know, if you have have the ability to create value out of that and put it into a product like CLT or LBL typically it's CLT, it's got a better use case for it Then there's obviously a better recovery there.
Speaker 2:So just to clarify. So glulam is similar to CLT, but they all run in the same direction. So the timber's kind of stacked to create a beam most common and then LVL, which is laminated veneer. Lumber is larger bits of plywood cut up so the veneer is glued together, but all of them essentially get most of their strength from the glue itself.
Speaker 1:You touched on an interesting thing, both of you guys just before, how you were kind of saying it's essentially made of waste product and, george, you mentioned it being sort of the leftover remains from the milling process. I'm just thinking and it's something that I've been working with the Better Building Working Group down in Wanaka for a while is how we do with waste timber from building sites. So we had a site down in Queenstown that was a homestead project so we tracked all the waste from that. We had 1.6 tonnes of waste that went to landfill. 1.3 tons of that was timber, yep.
Speaker 2:Off cuts and that sort of thing, just off cuts.
Speaker 1:And that was a SIP build, Not a lot of timber in it as it was. The majority of that came from internal framing and a little bit from mid floors. There's a huge amount of wasted timber and there's nothing that you can do with it. It essentially just goes to landfill. Are you guys looking at any? Yeah, well, I mean you try and use as much of it as you can.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of drawings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I don't want to encourage that either, because that's just creating thermal bridging. But you know, like, if you're, you guys are sort of, I guess, do you have a model? I guess what I'm trying to get to is do you have a model, or are you looking at or have you thought about a model where you could potentially buy back this waste timber for fabrication?
Speaker 3:Probably the quick answer to that is no. I mean, I suppose, the structure and having it come from our mill, there's a huge amount of quality assurance that sits behind it. At the end of the day, it's a structural component, right? So we have to. You know the amount of data that we collect during the manufacturing process, especially in this facility in Australia that we have now. It's huge, you know. It's mapping moisture content, the actual structural performance of the individual lamellas, the glue line integrity between those lamellas, the finger-joining performance. At the end of the day, if we're building and we have done nine 10-story buildings out of CMT, you want to know that every component of that is meeting a very stringent requirement.
Speaker 2:What's the highest you've built? Just out of curiosity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I mean, 8 or 9 is probably the main for XLAM in terms of projects that were supplied, some here in New Zealand and some in Australia. Globally there's upwards of 15, 16, 17, 18 in the States, which is amazing, I suppose where that goes to. That next level of height, vertical extension, is in hybrid solutions. You know, Atlassian in Sydney at the moment is building a big concrete CLT hybrid build. I forget the total number of storeys, but it's upwards of 30. It's significant.
Speaker 1:Isn't that new? The new fish market? A hybrid CLT building as well. Isn't it in Sydney?
Speaker 3:That's primarily glulam so there's a lattice roof structure, but there's steel and concrete components.
Speaker 2:So I suspect the one you were talking about is concrete columns and beams and CLT flooring or something like that.
Speaker 3:Primarily a structural core. So obviously you know, if you create a core, especially for the high-rise buildings, when you start to introduce like considerations of fire. What they've looked to do is basically I forget the number of stories within each compartment, but they've basically created, you know, vertical sections of sort of call it three stories of concrete and then the infill is a CLT and then they're doing that repeatedly.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 3:So I suppose that approach allows timber to be integrated in a way where, if you just made that solely out of concrete and steel, which is possible, there's a huge amount of cost in terms of construction timeframes, back propping, curing times. The efficiency to build that is significantly improved by the integration of the timber components.
Speaker 1:So this begs the question why are we not using it more?
Speaker 3:cost I mean I think it's up, it's, it's probably, I mean, cost it in terms of if you were to take the material, one material, and put it alongside the other. You're right, ben. I mean that's how it's perceived and that's that's probably the biggest barrier at this point in time. I suppose you know some of those reference points are just made there and around. You know, a concrete floor. If you're laying a trade floor and and infilling it with concrete and back propping it and leaving that to cure for however many weeks, that's time right At the end of the day, in a commercial environment, time is money and so I suppose that's the part that's hard for anyone, especially the supplier of timber, to sit back and go. The timber's definitely faster because of course it's perceived that we'd say that, but we definitely are seeing that in commercial applications.
Speaker 3:X-lam were involved with Heinz as a global real estate organization and they have a timber model that they've taken throughout the world and they built a timber model that they've taken throughout the world and they built one in um in melbourne. It's called t3 collingwood and that had effectively eight stories of of concrete and steel and then eight of cl10 glulam and it's like a test. That's just. That's just the design it's. It's repeated throughout did they?
Speaker 1:it'd be really interesting. Sorry, just quickly on that. It'd be really interesting to know which was more efficient or which eight-storey sector was cheaper.
Speaker 3:In terms of cost. That's just the point. So the actual cost of the materials on the base component were obviously cheaper up front, but the labour savings and the efficiency on the upper levels was significant.
Speaker 3:And so you put that into a global context and understand what that means for a project. It definitely has a place and I suppose probably the key thing there is it's an education thing, you know, in terms of understanding, you know, getting those stakeholders involved in a project and getting the right people and the right knowledge in the room, that upfront sort of awareness around. You know you don't approach a timber building in the same way that you do a traditional, because there's different. There's, you know, it's not vastly different, but there's different considerations that need to be brought into the room and consider that at key stages to allow you to do that upfront thinking and make meaningful changes.
Speaker 3:And I suppose, if you put it into a commercial context where you talk about grid set out, I mean timber alone, whilst it can span the same sort of nine by nine grid for a commercial application, what does that do? It increases the structural depth of it. So you start to question okay, well, is that material the right use case for that application? And that's probably the better scenario for, I guess the right use case for that application and that's probably the better scenario for, I guess, the widespread use of mass timber, and it's that's looking at using the right materials for the right applications, I suppose.
Speaker 1:In that same breath or in that same vein, like what about acoustics and fire and that sort of thing like how does it stack up moisture, all these things that I guess timber is a little bit susceptible to like? How does it stack up moisture, all these things that I guess timber is a little bit susceptible to like? How does it stack up to to counterparts?
Speaker 3:I mean there's a lot of perception around. You know, timber you put, you put a piece of timber in your fire to heat your house, right, it burns and I suppose, and that's, you know, that's a lot what a lot of people think right, but in reality you know, you testing, and there's a there's a huge amount of testing that sits behind products like cross-seminated timber and glulam. But I mean it actually performs very predictably in a fire case. So obviously it chars and then it burns at a constant rate or a relatively constant rate, and what that allows us to do is obviously during a design phase you can allow for that. So you want 30 minutes, 60 minutes, minutes. You obviously scale those components accordingly, code requirements in different countries.
Speaker 3:Obviously timber is a you know have with its group rating and surface spread of flame. That does introduce other challenges but it can be managed with the integration of, you know, linings and that sort of thing. So what we often see, that fire does dictate, especially at height. So residential, it's very simple and very easy to leave timber components exposed. Ben, the Warriner house and Littleton would have all been exposed. Beautiful, and that's, I think, the initial driver for many people to use timber is to touch it, feel it that biophilic aspect. As we all know, the know, the materiality of timber is a really you know, well understood thing in terms of the benefits for the occupants. But I suppose that the integration of you know building code requirements sometimes dictates what extent of timber can be left exposed, especially if you're talking multiple stories. So, yeah, yeah, it kind of seems like a shame to cover it up when you're talking multiple stories.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, it kind of seems like a shame to cover it up when you're using it to celebrate the material it just becomes and then essentially it's just steel, right, and then you're only yeah, you're looking, you're looking, then you're looking at different, different things to try and weigh up your options.
Speaker 3:But yeah, that's right, and I suppose that I mean there's there's a design approach here and there's there's developing technology around. You know thermally rated glues and that sort of thing, which obviously allow timber to be left exposed, intrumescent coatings, which mean that the challenges around, you know, exposed timber elements can be controlled to a higher degree, and I suppose that aspect means that the ability to probably celebrate certain components of larger commercial applications is possible. That's not to say that every commercial project has to have timber encapsulated or concealed behind a fire-rated substrate or whatever. That's really project-specific. There's a number of fantastic examples in New Zealand and internationally where timber is used in an exposed manner and it's even at 10 stories plus.
Speaker 2:I'll never forget when they started making us treat the timber for internal use, for durability.
Speaker 3:If you left it exposed.
Speaker 2:You know how. There's a whole bunch of rules and regulations around exposed timber, around kitchens and wet areas and that sort of thing. So if we wanted to use you know CLT or, for example, other timber products exposed in a residential house, then we had to treat the timber, the interior layer, which you know as soon as you kind of have a treatment in there. It's just not well, it's not as appealing, I guess.
Speaker 1:What were you treating it in?
Speaker 2:Ben no, so that's how it came treated, obviously.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so most of it is it all?
Speaker 1:LSOV stuff.
Speaker 2:At the beginning we didn't actually have to. Most of it was. You know it's so solid and robust it would take so long to actually rot away. The thought of it rotting away is not a bit of MDF or anything. These panels were like 70 mil thick.
Speaker 1:Solid timber.
Speaker 2:Smaller. A lot of them were like 90 mils or something. It's going to take you 50 years of water just for it to rot away you're worried about a bit of yeah, you raise a super valid point there.
Speaker 3:I mean, I mean durability. Obviously you know the quality of the built environment's critical and and that's what we sort of all do and in many respects we're, we're contributing to that that future environment. We want it to last as long as possible. I mean, I think, treatments you know, at Exlam we use a treatment that's been developed by our sister company, Hein Timber, which allows us to be compliant to the New Zealand Building Code. But that aside, durability is down to good detail and good design. Right at the end of the day, that's again using the right materials and the right sort of design considerations in the right place to to ensure something doesn't fire prematurely. I think there's treat. Things like treatments are obviously a fallback for underperformance and designs. Look, you're never going to get around that. From a building code point of view it's yeah, it's essential.
Speaker 1:I'm just really good at detailing guys.
Speaker 3:It's fine, it's impervious yeah, but it's uh, I think that's that's a key part of of um. You know any you're building with any product. To be fair, it's good good practice in detailing. But yeah, sam you, you made the comment around acoustics as well. I mean acoustics. Obviously. The the density of timber over concrete especially is is quite different. Yeah, but there are ways in new developing technologies that allow CLT especially. Obviously the consideration for acoustics comes into play when you're talking intertenancy floors and walls in particular. There are ways around it to get products, sorry to get overall wall buildups to be compliant or exceed that, and you know many of those are integrating existing approaches. You know bending, cradle floors, but also there's other new products out of the States and Europe where higher density rubbers and sand and other things are allowing the floor buildup to achieve favorable acoustic performances, which is fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it's just that with any mass product, be it timber or be it concrete, like there's always just that concern. We even have that issue with sips. You know they acoustically, without an air gap, don't perform that well, so you need that, you need that buffer of something for we need to be able to break up the sound, the sound waves so what happens with the sips?
Speaker 2:is it kind of like because clt's reverberation right, it's because it's so solid, it's like just um vibrates from one space to another yeah, so like tapping on it, you'll get that sound or transfer straight through it it's the same as there's no air gap, right, you need air to break out contact sound.
Speaker 1:So the insulation doesn't do much. Nah, not really not for contact sound. So rain on the roof, you'll hear that quite I like it. But we've had clients, you know a few clients complain that it's a little louder than they thought it was going to be. But then airborne sound. You know, the houses are airtight so you don't hear airborne sound really anyway. But airborne sound also doesn't really penetrate through because that's when the insulation is doing its job. But it's that contact sound. That's more of the issue. So what's airborne sound? Sorry, it's like a car honks its horn across the road.
Speaker 1:You're less likely to hear that because the insulation is actually that's when it's working. But if there's a woodpecker tapping on the side of your wall or something, or somebody's downstairs hammering something, you'll hear that through the structure a little bit more. Yeah, and it'll probably be the same with CLT, I imagine In a world where design speaks louder than words, what story does your space tell? At Autex Acoustics, they believe great design is more than aesthetics. Every product they create strikes a perfect balance between form, function and sustainability, made to enhance how space sounds, looks and feels. From using recycled materials to pioneering carbon negative wool, their commitment is to help you shape environments that inspire people and respect the planet. Explore the future of acoustics design at autexacousticsconz.
Speaker 2:Yeah, clt. Remember the product that you guys used to make. It was like a double layer the twin skin, one Twin skin, yeah, yeah. That was a good product.
Speaker 3:Which was like a 60 mil with a PIR. We don't make it anymore, but it's yeah insulation in between it was like a sandwich.
Speaker 1:Giant between, it was like a sandwich. Giant sip, it was like a giant Chonky sip. Structural.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was probably. I mean, we supplied a few projects and a lot of people still ask for it, but it's probably. It's a different sort of space that we want to play in in terms of pure production of timber, I suppose it starts yeah, exactly yeah, pump it out. Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right, but it's um, you know, I think that the the performance one, one of the things with I call it an emerging technology, and it's it's not emerging, emerging, it's. It's been used in europe for 40 years emerging, and that's and that's just that.
Speaker 3:You know it takes, it takes us, it takes a long time to, you know, weave new products through a full you know full, full spectrum of stakeholders, right, clients, designers you know there's you know how many think about how many consultants are in a given project these days. You know you've got going to a design meeting and there's there's 50 people and they're all doing something different for the project. But it's, I suppose, the level of understanding and integration of those learnings across the board. It takes some time to adopt in a widespread manner. It does take time.
Speaker 3:I think as part of that, once people get sort of more familiar, they see better examples of probably landmark projects and also the use case in a day-to-day. There's something it was one of the engineers from Dunning Thornton we're on a timber panel a couple of months ago and she made this really nice reference to timber you can build ball gowns or you can build T-shirts and I think that's really nice because everyone marvels at the ball gown because it's beautiful and it really shows the capability of timber and the advancements of machining and design and all that sort of thing. But from a widespread use case, um, if you could find a position where the residential market is using clt in a well-suited case on a mass scale. That's where the the level of understanding and interaction becomes, you know, so much more engaging well, that's what rta are doing with their, their project such a cool.
Speaker 2:I'm kicking myself because I'm like I sort of bloody done that years ago and we definitely tried. But kudos to rta, that's like such a slick design and focusing it on that.
Speaker 1:You know that affordable housing sector as well, and it's sort of like, okay, if it can be, if it can hit this mark, and it sort of pushes that affordability we know that price complex that you talked about earlier. Down the road a little bit, it'll help residential architects like myself go. Oh well, why can't I use this as a solution? I know, george, you've been drumming me up for a while to try and use it.
Speaker 1:You haven't got me over the line yet and I would and I would love to, like, I honestly would love to, and I keep thinking, you know, starting to think about the design aspect of it. I think the the initial from a designer's point of view, like initial reluctance, I guess, for us to adopt it as a lack of understanding of one what the product is or how it can perform or how we can utilize it. Is there not necessarily just xlam, but like in the wider, obviously xlams where the perspective you're coming from, but in like the wider mass timber realm, like, is there that design advice and assistance there, even at a small scale, like if we were to do like individual one-off houses?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, that is indeed like. Are people actually still using it in the residential sector? Is it that common?
Speaker 3:now A hundred percent. I think you know we're seeing a huge cross-section in terms of use cases. I mean resi, like typically high-end, is where you get very bespoke and you start to lean on the capabilities of what CNC machining offers for projects in terms of, you know, complex geometries and um, you know, really, really looking at um ways that you can really emphasize the capability of of mass timber and the advancements that it that it brings. But I suppose we're also seeing a lot of call it mainstream builders and we've just referenced the rta example where people are going back to looking at using it just for mid floors in their residential applications or just for sub floors if they're on a sloping site, and I think that that's really encouraging.
Speaker 3:Whilst you know rta as an example, they were also involved in scion and they're involved in fisher and pike or you know these, these amazing, amazing examples of pretty detailed understanding of the product before they even got there 100, but you know, not everyone's building global headquarters, you know, but everyone is building homes, right, and that's the, that's the, really, and you know, going back to that ball gown versus though the ARTA version is sort of more inclined to be on the ball gown side because they do some pretty cool designs, but you know, it's mainstream versus kind of one-off bespoke applications, and I think that….
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's more like a nice T-shirt. A nice T-shirt, yeah, oh yeah, that's cool. So I guess like one of the benefits of using it in residential to make those nice t-shirts. I'm not sure if you can actually do this, but once you've kind of got that file set up and you've run it through the system and you basically have that cutting blueprint it's more or less just a rinse and repeat Whenever you want the same thing. You can kind of just find a little gap and run it through the system. Right, does that sound about right?
Speaker 3:yeah, and in fact, from a um, from a manufacturing point of view, and it's you know it's not unique to xlam, it will be. It'll be the case for many having the ability to have standardized you know products that you can pump out in terms of projects, you know. So you're working with a housing developer who's got a standardized design. If, if you can make that with a compressed lead time, without any coordination and shop drones and all the stuff that is typically involved with these high complexity projects, perfect, we could make it tomorrow, so to speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you'll have lag time in your production process as well. It kind of just slots into those gaps nicely and that ultimately like makes that entire product super efficient from from all perspectives really yeah, I always thought that the um medium density market would benefit from it a lot more than the single, the one-off residential time to say using it again at the very least, you're building whatever five or ten of the same or similar thing, right, yeah, yeah there are.
Speaker 3:There definitely are developers that we work with um net space, who you know. That's their, their core focus. They use clt mid floors all day, every day, which is you know that they they've just got it so ingrained in terms of their design approach, the efficiencies that it creates in terms of install of those components on site. For one day they're standing ground floor frames, then they've got CLT and then they're on the next level the day following. So for them it feeds into that site component around efficiency, which is awesome. Clt and Glulam and those products which have high alignment with environmental considerations. What we're typically seeing is we've got EPDs and everything that backs up the environmental performance of our product. That maps everything from the forest to the factory gate, basically, and so that's tree regrowth time, et cetera. In terms of the living building challenge, you have to have a whole lot of considerations for reuse of that building after its natural life. Basically.
Speaker 3:So, looking at ways that you can repurpose, say, clt floors or something, and reuse them in another building.
Speaker 2:Just a whole bunch of tables.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, why not, it's still reuse right Chairs and staircases.
Speaker 3:The reality of that might not might not be as as refined as what is thought at that stage, when they're pitching to get credentials. You know for a environmental thing, but at least it brings it to the forefront in terms of environmental consideration. You start to think, well, if we did this, maybe it could be used as a I don't know a floor in a house or something which is cool.
Speaker 3:I think that's quite powerful, but construction sector is one of the biggest emitters to negative environmental impacts. 40% We've never sort of really thought about that, sam. What was your number there? 40% oh, I know One and a half tonnes of timber offcuts or something, or cubic timber.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 1.3 tonne of timber. Yeah, Out of 1.6 tonne total waste. 1.3 tonne of that was timber.
Speaker 3:And that's one project you think about that. You can see why that number of 40% in an industry is so high.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've done over the years done a lot of three axis CNC routering and so that's essentially. You know, you put a bit of plywood and on a sheet which is typically two, four by 12, and you cut it, cut out your shapes and whatnot, and part of that process is nesting. So how you determine what the most efficient use of the material. One of the good things I always liked about cross-laminated timber was yeah, there's obviously like an element of trimming but it's more or less cut to or it's kind of compressed to fit the actual component it's going to turn into.
Speaker 3:Does that make sense.
Speaker 2:So it's like cut to suit.
Speaker 1:It's not even like dw's worth of waste, essentially, yeah, it's not like you're getting delivered a bunch of three six-length timber or six-meter length timber. You're not getting one point and you're docking 600 off each one. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:These are the lengths that we need. Let's build it together. We'll trim the edges, and that's that which was quite efficient really Absolutely, ben.
Speaker 3:I mean and you know the reference to nesting there that's the key to it, right? I mean we, you know we have ability to create large billets and then we typically will make a billet to suit a panel. But we've got examples of projects where it hasn't been CLT, hasn't been used as a you know, three by six metre, you know, component, it's triangles or something, some odd shape and configuration that it's going into. And so as part of that, we've got the ability throughout modeling software to optimize that configuration so that the waste is absolutely as close to naught as possible, not a waste, and that's not possible. There is a waste part of CLT production, but the cool thing that's part of things like epds, it's mapped right.
Speaker 3:So what we, what we now do is we have waste streams for all of our offcuts is, you know, in australia we've got a good relationship with a contractor who comes in, collects it all, mulches it up and uses it for the bulk uh, bulk supply of mulch and and sawdust for horse stables and that sort of thing. So that's 100% recyclable, pre-treated, I hope. Well, our treatment has been tested. So we've gone to the length to test the ability for that to be used, right, cool. So it's got a declare red list, free treatment, which you know. Again, it means that none of that's going to the landfill, which is, you know, that's huge. You take into consideration, ben, the point you made around the panels coming to site with no offcuts, and then, even at a production level, we're able to reuse that, the offcuts that are created during manufacturing, the offcuts that are created during manufacturing. That's super efficient. You know, which is really amazing to be able to be involved in a product where there's that level of consideration for that cyclical nature of the product and reuse.
Speaker 2:As part of this podcast. I don't know if Sam told you, jordan, but you're actually required to take us over to Australia and conduct a tour of the factory factory yeah, it's a deep dive we. We also have to, you know, step inside the five axis router to experience its vastness, which I actually did, we actually make sure we turn it off then.
Speaker 1:But what's? What is the limitation on size of a panel?
Speaker 3:seriously. If you're ever in australia, come and have a look. It's amazing thing to see like that level of optimizations. It blows me away even when I go there on a regular basis. Every manufacturer obviously has different machinery that they use and different supplies of those systems, and so that typically dictates the production output. So, as an example, we can make panels three and a half or 3.44 is the exact dimensions by 15.7 meters long, which is a big panel, and that can be 310 thick.
Speaker 2:What's the most efficient panel to make? That's big. Yeah, is that the most efficient? Like three meters?
Speaker 3:Not necessarily there's a whole lot of other considerations around uh, panel size versus.
Speaker 1:You know if you, if you've got a, a project that's in queenstown or wanaka, as an example there's no way you'd make an oversized load because you're not getting it there, well you get it there, but at a huge cost, right but yeah you know, yeah, um where it
Speaker 3:whereas one at a time, whereas pulling that within gauge, as an example, under 3.1, still still a very big panel.
Speaker 3:But obviously you you're controlling that freight component, yeah, but you know by all means if there's a, if there's a project within a close proximity to a uh, you know production facility makes complete sense to maximise that if you can.
Speaker 3:But then you're also governed by things like crannage. I mean three and a half metres by 50, that's a good four or five tonne, you know, depending on the thickness. So you do need to factor those things in and that's why I say before around having early involvement, early engagement from stakeholders and making decisions up front. That feeds into the way that we would supply a project and go through the shop drawing and production phase. But in terms of that efficient panel layout, ben, I mean from a thickness point of view, it's not necessarily the thinnest is the cheapest or the best to produce or the thickest. It kind of varies throughout our range and it's dependent on the feedstock that goes into it. So if we have to change the lamella thicknesses and arrangement then obviously it adds time and you know, not complexity, but it just adds time into the process which carries cost, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and are you guys only doing pine? Yeah. Australian radiata grown pine, I suppose? Yeah, and are you guys only doing pine? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Australian radiata grown pine yeah, so it was all your forestry in Australia.
Speaker 1:It was all production and all forestry for egg slam in particular in Australia.
Speaker 3:Now yeah, that's correct. Yeah, so as part of that, it's interesting a radiata pine tree grows slightly slower in Australia than it does in New Zealand, which means it's a little bit stiffer, different climate. But I think that is part of that. With the vertical integration of our business, it's all aligned from all. The supply comes from the hind timber mills, the forestry agreements that are in place for hind timber, long established. It's a reliable source of feedstock.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it is all very much an australian and grown and supplied are there any new and exciting innovations that you guys are kind of working on as well, other than, obviously, just clt itself?
Speaker 3:I think one thing that, um, you know, I haven't been around, been in x-land this whole time, but obviously, as we referenced at the that, um, you know, and I haven't been around being an x-lan this whole time, but obviously, as we referenced at the start, being, you know, been abreast to it for a long time and it's, I suppose, one thing that's interesting is, whilst the capabilities and machining and everything is gone, you know, it's still forever increasing and improving. Um, and I referenced it a couple of times earlier that probably that they're getting back to basics and doing the simple things really well, is actually probably more a focus right now. Yeah, because, yeah, I mean, give us the most complex thing and we can make it, but it's not necessarily what drives a manufacturing approach. You know, you need the level of reliability and predictability and refinement that allows a production facility to drive volume, and so there's a lot. You know it's easy to describe it that way, but the reality of that is quite a bit different, and so that, for us, has been a key focus.
Speaker 1:It's something you guys don't really control, that and it's a focus, for sure, but it's almost on us as architects or designers or engineers or you know the people that the, the user or the specifier of the solution, to start to be a bit more experimental or start to use it, yeah, less experimental or less? Experimental. Yeah, just kind of exactly take a bait to pass it yeah and that and look, that's not be less experimental.
Speaker 2:That's not be less experimental.
Speaker 3:That's how you can just chill out every building needs in new zealand and australia needs to look identical. Yeah, and that's not just that's not to stifle design innovation by any means, but it's. I think if you look at, you know, take some learnings from stick frame construction right, it's a sim. Like the reason it works so well and it's so widely used is because it's pretty basic and it's and it's well refined, right, and you take that mindset and overlay it in terms of clt and and glulam and those kind of newer mass timber components. Then then you start to really drive volume and get get the the use case of that product slightly more widespread. I guess, yeah, but in innovations you've always got to be innovating. I suppose you know. You probably look at your own businesses and what you do day to day. I suppose 10 years ago, you know, were you doing the same thing.
Speaker 1:No, completely not, not even three years ago.
Speaker 2:That's it I was so much more innovative back then, I feel like I've lost it in the last 10 years like figuring out how to refine it. Refined maybe, but definitely not innovative.
Speaker 3:Through innovation, you learn what also doesn't work as well, ben, so maybe you've had that mindset up front and you know what works? Yeah, but to answer your earlier question, I mean, as a business we're always looking to innovate and, you know, try new things in terms of, you know, new products, new ways of streamlining our processes, always looking at new ways of doing things better, like a machinery.
Speaker 3:But I suppose the thing has been you know, those things are, are always there. You can always throw money at something to make it happen to, to get your, to get your return and your um and value out of those investments, because they're considerable, right, it's about using them as efficiently as possible, um, and you know, even even for us. You know, we've been in in business, business for longer than others in the Australasian market and we still haven't reached our maximum capacity, you know. So there's a long way to go, which is exciting because it's only up from here.
Speaker 1:We've talked about the barrier in terms of like your own or like you know, the business innovation side of things, and then the design point of view. But what about the trades innovation side of things. And then the design point of view. But what about the trades? Is there a barrier for more pickup of this due to a lack of skill set or understanding or whatever around the actual constructing or the assembling of CLT?
Speaker 3:panels Initially. Yes, I mean people don't want to deviate away from what they know right, and I mean, at the end of the day it's timber and if a builder's not familiar with how to trim a bit of timber then they shouldn't be on a building site. But I suppose many probably were somewhat apprehensive to engage with it. But as part of that, as part of kind of mainstreaming and seeing how simple mass timber can be and what level of kindastema can be and what you know, what level of kind of familiarity can be drawn from what they do currently, that's where there's a higher degree of confidence For us.
Speaker 3:I mean, we typically see, you know, if we previously examined in the early days, we were involved in installs. As part of that we would typically align with main contractors and you know, as part of that they would be on-site at part of that install journey, two, three, four iterations down the track, they're installing it themselves, right? So it's just a learning thing, I guess at the end of the day, understanding the nuances of the material, the weights, the considerations are on-site. The material, the weights, the considerations are on site, having key, certain specific equipment to install and move it around. But it's timber at the end of the day and it's easily managed, which I think especially in New Zealand we're seeing the uptake of that at a residential scale especially, which is awesome. So yeah, I'd say still some work to do there in the trade sam, but I think it's, it's definitely a growing space in terms of that familiarity, do you guys?
Speaker 3:offer training in that, like in that realm yeah, so we we have a lot of project managers as part of our business, so there's there's obviously a we split things up into pre-construction, which is anything to our factory, and then there's obviously the delivery component. That involves logistics and advice in terms of install sequence and methodology and that sort of thing. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean we as a business would support that. It only helps the use case of the product really Just got to find a project now.
Speaker 1:Then, jules, come on, really Just got to find a project now then Joss, come on.
Speaker 2:Mate Jordan, do you think that Guy Marrage, our beloved thesis supervisor, has any students that are working on using AI and the combination of AI and cross-laminated timber to design some really efficient?
Speaker 3:buildings, cross-laminated timber aside, I mean, imagine what art schools are like these days in terms of getting stuff done. I just think that whole design world would be a different space now than it was when we were there. But look, I think at the end of the day, going back to the discussion we had before about innovation and tools, it's a tool to to do things better, right? I suppose absolutely there'd be parametric, you know ai tools that would allow you to optimize design and grid setouts and all sorts of things that would have been fun would have saved you some time.
Speaker 2:Probably there's a lot of uh, probably would just been different headaches yeah different headaches. More exciting headaches potentially, but I'm sure it's actually happening. I mean like, why wouldn't it be right?
Speaker 3:Of course, yeah, absolutely You'd think so.
Speaker 1:On that design side because you were an architect first, well trained as an architect first. George, do you have a favourite CLT building?
Speaker 2:I've got many mate, Actually the Warranda studio.
Speaker 3:Oh, you've got me, mate. Yeah, that was it. I knew it all along. Honestly, sam, like I think you know, we started off this discussion around Ben and I going off to the Prefab NZ conference while we're doing our thesis. For me, timber I've always loved timber, you know. It's something I grew up with, with my old man building things growing up, and I I suppose you're, you're raised at itm, weren't you plug? Yeah, no, that, that's right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, stacking, stacking, uh, 90 by 45 and you know, yeah, filleting, filleting timber to be dried and all sorts of things. But as part of that that I've always had a close association with timber as a material. I even look back at, prior to thesis year, all my design projects at uni. They always integrated something I remember.
Speaker 3:I love timber. It was just me, I suppose, favorite projects, sam, to answer that question. I actually just love going on any timber site, whether it's a small resi project or a scion, a scion or a. I haven't been on the Fisher and Paykel site, but you know these amazing landmark projects absolutely. You sort of marvel at what can be achieved with timber.
Speaker 1:They just have a different. Go inside and just take a big sniff, breathe it in.
Speaker 3:It sounds a bit crazy, but I do. You know there's something special about a timber project, especially a large commercial one. So it's, and you know we're lucky to have been involved in projects here in new zealand and australia where, during varying levels of complexity, scale is, is, is the next thing, which you know obviously is somewhat awe-inspiring, when you, you know, stand there and go, this is timber, at the minute we're, we, we've finished our involvement, but we've just supplied a 100-meter clear-spanning timber hanger for Air New Zealand in Auckland.
Speaker 1:I've seen the concepts for that.
Speaker 3:You stand in that thing and just think that that's timber, it's just. Yeah, you're mind boggles.
Speaker 1:Thanks for your time, george. Thanks guys. Thanks for coming on. It's fun to chat. Yeah, you might bongos.
Speaker 2:Thanks for your time, george.
Speaker 3:Thanks guys, thanks for coming on. It's fun to chat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good to talk about timber.
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