Design Principles Pod
Architecture. A hot topic, a buzz word, a realm for the rich and famous, or the thing that your step uncle does? We will be unpacking the good, the bad and the downright reality of the architectural and construction industry. With insights from industry professionals and personal anecdotes from our three hosts Ben, Gerard and Sam, you will be given a look behind the closed pages of those fancy looking moleskins. Tune in and redline out.
Design Principles Pod
Capturing Architecture: Moving Image and Storytelling
When we consume architecture, which speaks louder - the frozen moment or the flowing narrative? This question sits at the heart of our fascinating conversation with Clare Chapman, editor of Home Magazine, and Simon Devitt, renowned architectural photographer.
Despite both guests being masters of still imagery, our discussion reveals how moving image is transforming architectural storytelling in ways that complement rather than replace traditional photography. As Simon eloquently explains, "Video kind of can mimic how the mind maps space, whereas stills can't really do that. But stills hold another power that video can't possibly entertain... allowing the viewer to use their imagination."
The conversation weaves through surprising revelations about how we consume architectural media today. While 6-second videos dominate social feeds, Home Magazine readers spend an astonishing 90 minutes with each issue. This paradox highlights our simultaneous hunger for both instant gratification and deep engagement with architectural stories.
We explore the power of client perspectives in architectural media, with both guests agreeing these authentic voices often communicate more powerfully than architects themselves. As Clare notes, hearing homeowners discuss their spaces creates "that emotional connection" that's difficult to achieve through professional commentary alone.
Perhaps most fascinating is the discussion around authenticity in an age of photorealistic renders. Simon observes that "we are starting to question is that real or is it not?" This has created new value for content that documents genuine, built work across multiple formats - something increasingly important as consumers become more sophisticated in their media consumption.
Whether you're an architect seeking better ways to communicate your designs, a media professional navigating changing platforms, or simply someone who appreciates thoughtful discussion about how we experience buildings, this episode offers valuable insights into the evolving language of architectural representation.
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Sam Brown:Welcome back to the Design Principles Pod. Today we're diving into the world of moving image and architecture yes, the cinematic side of how we share and experience buildings To guide us through. We've got two esteemed guests Claire Chapman, editor of Home Magazine and friend of the podcast, Simon Devitt. Check out our previous episode with him. If you haven't already. You might be wondering why have we two guests best known for still media, here to talk about moving images? Well, that's kind of the point. As architecture becomes increasingly consumed through screens, film and video are stepping up as powerful ways to represent space, atmosphere and story, and these two are well entrenched in that change. We'll explore why moving image is growing in popularity, what it can do that stills can't, and why there is still space for the frozen frame. Let's dive in. We've got Simon Devitt back again. Welcome, Simon, Hello mate.
Sam Brown:Welcome For your annual visitation to the pod. Lovely to have you here and excited to have Claire Chapman from Home Magazine on the podcast as well. Welcome.
Ben Sutherland:Claire, I had to kick Gerard out.
Sam Brown:Yeah, we've decided five was too much of a crowd. So Gerard's, we paper-scissors-rocked and he lost that one. Welcome Claire. I had to kick Gerard out. Yeah, we've decided five was too much of a crowd.
Ben Sutherland:So, gerard's, we paper-scissors-rocked and he lost that one, so yeah, yeah, he's actually gone to the eBoss movie night.
Sam Brown:So sort of topical, I guess, a little bit with what the conversation is going to be about today. We thought we'd get you both on, simon, I think you and I were sort of bouncing around ideas on this at a shoot one day and sort of talking about moving image and architecture and the role that it has to play and its use in portraying architecture in a different manner. Thinking about it before we jumped on the call, it's sort of funny that we've probably got two people that are potentially better known for still media on to have a chat, but then again, I think you both are excellent proponents of the moving image format as well just to clarify moving image.
Ben Sutherland:You're talking videos.
Sam Brown:You're talking like render walkthroughs yeah, in my head I'm thinking more completed project stuff, just the way that it sells architecture in a different manner, um, to the, to the still image and claire. I just jumped off looking at a bunch of the shorts that you did for the Home Awards and I think something that struck me with those is firstly, how brief they are, but how much more of the narrative they give to the project that you wouldn't have got otherwise, and it'd be interesting just to get your thoughts on that and what it was like producing those for the awards.
Clare Chapman:Yeah, I think it's really interesting and they are really short, you know, sometimes just six seconds. But what you can portray in six seconds with, you know, short-form video like that is quite amazing. And I think it's just, you know, focusing on those little details and they become quite immersive just even in that short amount of time. So it's really interesting, sort of what you can do with that format.
Sam Brown:I found the one of Rafe's Kākāpōd Like. I know the project relatively well but you see it in such a different light, particularly in the way that he talks through the project as well. I think that's something that is often missing with still image and we can try and maybe write it down, but I'd say most of the time we as architects aren't particularly good with our words, so it's quite good to try and kind of like draw it out of us in front of a camera and I feel like somehow maybe this is just self-consciousness talking, but it seems less wanky when you're explaining it in front of the camera rather than writing it down. I don't know, is that something that you guys sort?
Clare Chapman:of feel. I definitely think it's a more relaxed way of doing it, isn't it? I mean not necessarily for the person in front of the camera, but you know you're in the space and you can just sort of talk through it, rather than you know it's not as composed and sort of structured, I guess, as it would be if you were trying to write about it. And, simon, do you reckon?
Sam Brown:did you do, because I know you took the stills for the bunker house that won Home of the Year? Did you do the moving image for that one as well?
Simon Devitt:No, paul does a lot of well almost all of the Home magazine moving image, promotional, award stuff and does a beautiful job and also a really lovely guy.
Simon Devitt:We work together a lot on shoots and typically I'd be a no to having anyone else on a shoot with me, but Paul's great, so we have a good time and he shot a really nice piece for Home Magazine of the Bunker House. I did also shoot my own video and often well, not even often I always shoot stills and video. Now, even whether it's a part of the brief or not, for me it's a part of being able to understand a project and I sort of dip in and out of those two mindsets, those two sort of head spaces of the still image and the power of that kind of narrative which is more in the ambiguous and the kind of meditative, more implication and not explanation, and video sort of tends toward more explanation and it sort of sits with that fast-moving kind of appetite we have for visuals versus the still, which is perhaps more of the slow cooking kind of tension and wonder kind of area in the visual realm. I think.
Sam Brown:I wonder if that sort of more easily digested or maybe just more easily accessible aspect of video makes it more palatable in a way, I think, for the general public. You know a lot of people and we've had clients come to us being like we want a house that could one day be on the local project. You know that's an ambition for them. They never really talk about with like a house that could be in a magazine, like it's always video related. And I feel like a lot of people when they send us documentation or you know, like a briefing document or something, it always comes with a local project attachment or a YouTube video attachment or they've seen such and such on Grand Design. I think that the digestible nature of video seems to resonate more with the general public. Is that something that you guys reckon we have found?
Clare Chapman:Definitely. I think we find that with our audience. It's just in some ways, and I think it's more palatable in a way you know you can connect with walking through a space or you know understanding how it might feel, or you know how spaces connect, especially if you can't see that from one image. You can experience that from moving through a house and it just becomes, I guess, that emotional connection through a house and it just becomes, I guess, that emotional connection to a space.
Ben Sutherland:I guess like storytelling must play a quite a big role, especially in the video realm. I know like obviously for you, simon, a lot of it is about storytelling as well. Perhaps slightly different how, yeah how, does the storytelling kind of come into it and and shift between still and and video?
Simon Devitt:a lot of videographers who shoot stills, or a lot of stills photographers who shoot video. They'll in my experience from what I know anyway, um, is that they'll separate out those days so they won't be on the same day, um, or it might be a half day stills and a half day video. I really enjoy mixing and matching between them on the same day and I'll just sort of take in a really well-heeled brief. And so for me, that creative process starts with listening first and foremost, and then asking some well-aimed questions and then taking that into that sort of level of intention, if you like, realized level of intention, into the experiences that I have on the day and it's sort of on a good day and most of them are pretty good wandering around, making it up as I go, which which, uh, is is a hell of a good time, and so, yeah, I will change from one camera to another and for me that sort of they go hand in hand. They can't. For me they, they can't be apart stills and video.
Simon Devitt:I think it's by virtue of comparison that we know what stills are versus what we know the experience of stills are and what that offers. Video kind of can mimic how the mind maps space, whereas stills can't really do that. But stills hold another power that video can't possibly entertain, the idea of which is the idea of suggestion and allowing the viewer to use their imagination, where we hold that threshold in a moment in time forever, rather than crossing over it. So with video we can do one thing, with stills we can do another. So I really love both.
Sam Brown:Do you find it difficult, Simon, jumping between the two, Like you said, on a shoot day you're saying some people obviously separate those days out. It's almost akin to, I don't know, drawing with graphite in the morning and then watercolors in the afternoon. You're painting a picture, but it's quite a different like medium in a way that. Do you find that transition quite difficult or do you think it's quite fluid in the way that you approach your work?
Simon Devitt:really fluid. Yeah, and there's no kind of um intended pacing or time spent on one or the other, it's just whatever feels right at the time. Um, I had a three-day shoot recently up at tar Eadie for Olsen Kundig in a beautiful house they did up there and you can imagine in three days you've probably covered everything right, whether it's just stills or a combination of video and stills. And this was definitely a combination of video and stills and we had three incredibly beautiful days with the weather, an amazing project, some great people around us to help make sure everything went really well On that third day. What I found really satisfying was that on the afternoon of that third day, I was still finding things I never would have shot on day one or two and I thought that was really telling of that project and that place.
Sam Brown:Was that a similar experience that you had going back to, I assume, the videos for the awards, kind of referencing them because they're the most current thing and you know that they're there and a lot of people are probably familiar with them? But did you find that, going back to those to shoot post, you know, the awarding of the prizes did you find that you sort of discovered more about the project through that process than you had beforehand?
Clare Chapman:Absolutely Interesting and I think it's sort of like Simon was saying then you know it's the time spent at a place that really reveals itself. And I think some of those projects you know visiting on different days and different weather, and you know then talking to the architects on site, it all just slowly sort of evolves and you realize all these different elements sort of come together and make it what it is. And I think that's always the way. You know, the more you visit somewhere, the more you kind of uncover with it.
Ben Sutherland:I like that idea of talking to the architect on site. So, like a lot of it, especially, I think, local project are a pretty good example of you know, you get the feeling that you're kind of like walking through the project with the overlay of a description from the architect or with the architect kind of as though you're there. Just having that overlay of the intention behind the spaces, why they kind of designed it that way or what they were thinking or what it relates to, is really powerful. And I mean, I'm obsessed with a lot of those YouTube videos. I can spend hours watching them, that's for sure.
Sam Brown:What's interesting is I reckon that what's more powerful than a lot of those videos is actually the client's view or the client's reflection on their own project. Because I think we as architects can appreciate the architecture People that sort of where's architecture and IBM than anybody else that sort of inhabits that realm. For prospective clients or people that are looking to kind of understand a project better, I do reckon that the client's opinion and views is equally as powerful, if not more so. I've just recently watched that video is it Shepherd Hut that Farron Hay did down in Wanaka? And just the client's passion for that project you can kind of feel it just like resonate from them and I don't think you'd get that necessarily from an architect. Like we obviously love our projects, but they're one of many, whereas for a client oftentimes it's everything. You know what I mean and I like that really tangible feeling that you get from the client's narration of their own project.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, palpable way, I think.
Sam Brown:Yeah.
Simon Devitt:That experience it can be and there are, you know, different stories from different clients and some speaking of that Pihar bunker. That was a. How long was that, claire? Seven years, I think that, chris 14 actually, I think. Was it 14 or?
Clare Chapman:something. Oh, my God.
Ben Sutherland:That's a, that's a journey, all right.
Simon Devitt:Journey journey. You know they fired each other at least once and the building, and so some great stories come from these things. And you know thinking of my time sitting down with sirian ethfield and and the stories he was able to tell me about different homeowners and projects, let alone his own house, the, the village on the hill hill here in wellington and kala I mean the stories that came out of that that were ripe to be told in my first book Portrait of a House. And so there's a hidden section where all the clients get to speak and some of them even drew pictures. So I think the client's view is underrated and really important.
Sam Brown:That's something that's pretty hard Although, Simon, you just painted a pretty good example of it coming across in stills but it's something that's quite hard to get. Is that client's view in a still image? Oftentimes we're commissioning the photographs for our own promotional purposes and I think it's changing, but less so video, but it's interesting in conversations. Recently we went through a brand renewal and chatting to the brand strategist and she was like why don't you have more client videos? Why don't you have more feedback? Shorts can be 30 seconds of somebody being like this is the process. This was great, this is my house kind of thing. That in itself is quite a powerful tool for helping you grow. You're only your business, but also the architectural understanding, I think.
Simon Devitt:That's great advice. I think one thing I talk about when I'm doing a workshop or mentoring is that on our own websites and our own Instagram feeds, it's us talking about us the whole time. Here are my pictures, here are my projects, here is me, me, me. When do we not talk about ourselves or when do we give that space, or that, um, uh, that that channel the opportunity to breathe a bit more of someone else talking about us, and I think that's where testimonial can come in yeah um, and suddenly when someone talks about you instead of you talking about yourself, it unlocks all of that other stuff.
Simon Devitt:You did all of that other hard work you did getting that website off the ground and the money you spent doing it.
Sam Brown:I mean, that's your whole job, isn't it, claire? To talk about other people in a way.
Clare Chapman:Yeah, to tell their story and I think just having you know for us it's it's. All these perspectives come into play with everything we do. So it's it's interesting. One of the um, one of the most recent videos we did was um of Clive Barrington's house um Christchurch based architectural builder, and it was really interesting hearing the architects. That was Johnstone Callaghan, you know talking about. You know their input and how it was quite special because he was sort of you know well, is in the industry and was really wanting some challenging designs and wanted to be challenged with his own home and I think that was a key part of the narrative and how the architecture came to be. Yeah, it was quite unique. Actually, you don't often sort of hear that side of the story. So, yeah, there's a lot you sort of learn, but I think in situations like that it is where we can. It's lovely to kind of hear the perspective from the homeowner and the clients.
Sam Brown:Yeah, I was going to ask is it something that you do commonly? Do you try to get as many kind of perspectives when you're formulating your stories as possible? Is it oftentimes more architect-driven, or is it more client-driven or what's generally the approach?
Clare Chapman:Generally it starts with the architect and from there, you know, we will try and get as many perspectives as possible. In most cases the clients aren't that keen to chat, so it makes that a little bit difficult. But we will get anecdotes and, you know, little bits of feedback and whatnot. So yeah, just depends on the clients.
Sam Brown:I guess, when your key focus is the residential sector, you know, people do often maintain their privacy a little bit. Absolutely and fair enough and I almost wonder if that's a little bit of a barrier to the moving image aspect of it. I mean you can kind of hide emoticons through a still, so I know we've been on shoots and don't worry about what's in the background kind of situation as you move junk away or furniture or something, but it's a lot harder to cultivate a space cleanly or flawlessly for moving image.
Sam Brown:Is that something that when you're working on this? Is it something that you consider the privacy aspect and also just like how fabricated the space in a way needs to be to be able to undertake that? Or is it any kind of chopping change a little bit on the shop floor?
Simon Devitt:Typically Claire will be able to speak to this really well. As well as that, when, when I turn up to a shoot, there's already a lot that's happened and, um, I don't know how they lived before I turned up, but often what from my understanding, is that a lot has happened before I got there. Even the fridge is tidy on many occasions. So people are house proud. They've said yes. It's usually for a very good reason. They don't just love the architect although they do love the architect but they're really proud of what they've achieved and they want to make sure that it comes across on the best light, and often that means things have been at least tidied.
Simon Devitt:Often it can mean furniture's been changed out. Whole moving trucks sometimes come in and take whole house loads away and another company will come in and style the whole thing. So there are iterations, of course, but generally quite a bit has happened. So when I turn up things are pretty mint. There's not a whole lot for me to do or tidy away. So, whether it's stills or video, there's a different set of constraints to consider, different thoughts to have around how you're moving through a space, but there's not, in my experience at least, much to move or change yeah, interesting, do you find that the same player?
Clare Chapman:yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I mean, often we do get involved in styling beforehand, so, but I think, like, like Simon said, with still and video it's the same parameters we're working with. So, yeah, not much different there, really.
Sam Brown:I love that. Yeah, subject of turning up and that being ready to go, how much prep do you put in? Probably more so considering the moving image thing and the storyboarding aspect of it. Simon, I know quite often your still work. You like turn up and see where the day takes you, you know, or see where the light and situation and weather or whatever kind of directs you Do. You need to be a little bit more, I guess, structured when you're considering.
Simon Devitt:No, I think that there are longer moments with more breath that sort of reveal themselves. You know, I'll see something and I think that would really suit or make a really great short clip. And we are talking short clips, quite small moments, even sometimes 10 seconds, but usually anywhere from sort of 30 to a minute, and then it might be edited down after that when we start putting the story together afterwards. But I've always got that sort of bigger picture in mind and for me when I'm on a shoot, having that bigger picture in mind for stills and for video, it's really, it's yeah, there's. There's not a lot of preparation for me going into those moments. I see something, I'll imagine how good that could be and then I'll set about getting it.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, sort of a longer form still, because often I've got a locked off frame with a lot of what I'm doing. I'm not moving the camera, I'm not panning and tilting. If there's any movement, it might be the drone video just moving very subtly through a space. Otherwise, it's really a lot of moments where the architecture animates the scene, not the camera animating the scene, which is my preference, and it's how those two things still in videos sit together so well. I think. For me that makes that work.
Sam Brown:Would that be a similar approach for you, claire, or are you looking at it a little bit more structured, as you're kind of trying to weave it into a story or help it support a story Do?
Ben Sutherland:you come up with a story first. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's it, which is what I've recently done.
Sam Brown:Do you come up with a story first and then go and seek the image, or do you kind of take something that maybe Simon's done or another photographer or videographer knows that as a driver for a story?
Clare Chapman:I think if Simon's already shot the house, we obviously have that set of images and that's a stunning place to start with for video. But when we turn up on the day we're quite non-structured, you know. It's always turning up talking to the architect or the designer walking through, and then it's following the day and that goes for getting the narration too and sort of drawing that story out. We really like to do that organically, so we avoid sort of sticking to a set of questions or anything like that or sort of developing the story beforehand, because what we find is the more casual the chat, the more candid it is and the more you sort of can gain from that. So it's a really organic process every time yeah, that's really good to know.
Ben Sutherland:Actually, I've recently just done one for myself, a little bit different though. These are like houses that we're selling, so you kind of have to like talk about the architecture even though it doesn't really exist yet, and you're like overlaying it with whatever images you have, which are, you know, renders, and. But I definitely went in one day and I was like, yeah, sweet, I'm just going to talk about it, and as though you know, I've spent a lot of time designing it. I know what it's all about, I know what's what man, I just could not get anything out. I literally had to go home and write a script and then practice it a hundred times. So it sounded somewhat natural, because it was a disaster. I guess what I was trying to do is cram it all into one or two hours. But what you just said then is you're spending a day and you're just kind of like walking around and it's kind of like you're drawing out of whether it's your clients or the architect. So I think, yeah, that scenario sounds a lot more pleasant, that's for sure.
Sam Brown:It's interesting, Ben, because I reckon when we're forced to talk about ourselves by ourselves we find it really hard. But just like Claire was saying, if it's far more relaxed and more candid, I think you get all the juicy stuff right. But when you're forced to think about it, that definitely disappears a little bit. I've found anyway, you sort of get a little bit too much in your own head and then you get a little bit too architected about it.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, or you say one thing that's wrong through a whole sentence, or that whole sentence is just wasted now Because the last part's not even true. I don't even know where that came from.
Sam Brown:That's what editing's for yeah.
Simon Devitt:Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Sam Brown:Yeah, exactly.
Simon Devitt:We need to see some of those outtakes, can you see?
Ben Sutherland:You're just the bloopers, some bloopers in there, that's for sure. We've got a whole pile of those. Yeah, that'd be fun actually, no, but it is definitely a good experience and I think, like post-construction, I think I'll you know do something similar again. I think it's quite a powerful tool.
Sam Brown:Tell the truth. Yeah, I'll try. Do you see that? I mean like one thing I kind of alluded to it with the website side of things video, feeling like it should be more prevalent in our promotional stuff, like, do you, are you seeing that as a key for your practice versus still renders or anything?
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, so we do a lot of marketing because you know, we do, you know, because you know, we do. You know design and then sell off plans, so we have to present our designs in a way that is captivating for an audience. Um, and what we've definitely found recently is the video is just 100 times more powerful. Obviously, we can't get proper photography done, so it's like you're weighing up between renders and a video, whether it is even just a rendered walkthrough or what is working even better is talking about your project. Firsthand does seem to be a lot better, and then cutting them up into little reels and putting them out there, it seems to be working a lot better.
Ben Sutherland:Then, cutting them up into little reels and putting them out there, it's, it's um, seems to be working a lot better reels, the favoured format, that little 30 second 30 yeah, it is for marketing for us anyway, because ultimately the goal is to get people to the website, um, and so like that's just a really easy way to do it, but completely different than I guess, um, or maybe not too dissimilar well, I was just thinking about, glenn, like you said, the videos.
Sam Brown:That's just a really easy way to do it, but completely different than I guess, or maybe not too dissimilar. Well, I was just thinking about, glenn, like you said, the videos that you did for the awards. You know that. What are they? A minute to a minute and a half max, did you? Was that short format intentional Because you know modern day attention spans are a lot shorter, or would you have liked it in a longer format? What's your take on the length of, or the ideal length of video? You know, considering that local project ones are about what? 10 minutes or so, but then I think you can get just as much information almost from like one of your short minute 30 type videos.
Clare Chapman:Yeah, well, most of ours the cinematic ones anyway are about three minutes, and that seems to be a really good amount of time to sort of capture a whole property, understand the narrative and really be able to sort of articulate that nicely Any shorter. It's a bit difficult. Obviously there's always scope for longer, but then, you know, on different social platforms the most successful, you know, sort of short forms are really six to eight seconds. That's all it is, and those are the ones that will get the most engagement over and over again. It's just these brief moments and that's what's capturing people's attention.
Sam Brown:Are you doing much storytelling in those brief moments or is it more just moving image of essentially what would be a still, but it's moving instead? Or are you trying to capture a little bit of narrative in that sort of very brief?
Clare Chapman:Yeah, both actually. So we sort of do a mix. So we will do ones where there's a bit more narrative and they sort of are up to about 30 seconds, and then the really short form ones that you know, like an image will just capture one small detail or one moment, and so it really depends on the context. But yeah, I do think it's interesting what sort of resonates at the moment, and it is that very, very short form video.
Sam Brown:Yeah, it seems to be the way with most things the attention spans are pretty short. Yeah, it's interesting. Have you considered, given the majority of this or you know, magazine is print media, do you see yourself operating in that digital realm equally as much, given that kind of speaking of attention spans? Not many people sit down and read an entire magazine, as you'll probably be well, which is difficult, but, um, you know they're beautiful things, difficult, but you know they're beautiful things to have. But you know, often the reality is, unless you're stuck on an Air New Zealand plan, you don't have a lot of time to digest the whole thing. Like, is that something that you're looking to investigate a bit more or work a bit more in that digital realm?
Clare Chapman:Yeah, well, it's really interesting. You say that we got some fascinating stats back recently from Nielsen Media and the average time apparently people spend reading home magazine is 90 minutes. I'm sort of quite taken aback by that. It's awesome. So I think it's. Uh, you know it's yeah not me clearly.
Clare Chapman:no, not me either. You know, but you know people do apparently. Yeah, it was. It was fascinating. But I think, yeah, like you say, with home, it's print has been the core offering for home for decades, but now most of our audience is online, so that is our main space now and print is a key part of that and I think always will be, but it's the digital where we have most of our readers and audience Did.
Simon Devitt:Nielsen ask or tell you how long rather people spend looking at the photos.
Clare Chapman:They didn't specifically, but perhaps I could ask Simon next time.
Simon Devitt:Point of comparison, because the pictures are so beautiful. I find so often that it's not surprising that they're not reading Federico's beautiful words.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, I always read through twice, Flick through first and kind of just skim over everything. Look at all the images first. Look out for you, Simon. Good on you.
Simon Devitt:Ben.
Ben Sutherland:And then I'll go back and I'll read the interesting articles. So I would say I'd be like a good you know, I'd spend a good chunk of time reading through it.
Sam Brown:It is a good point that, yeah, I'd do the same kind of flick through until something piques my interest, and then you sort of circle back around again.
Ben Sutherland:Exactly, but so I do just going on to that 90 minutes. So I definitely go back through and read some of the articles and when we're talking about kind of storytelling, they are pretty in-depth. You know, although it's kind of perceived that you know, video is especially in short form, is telling a good story? Good, you know a bit more of the story perhaps, but those articles are really telling the story. Are we kind of of at risk of losing a little bit of that or do you think that you know the longer videos kind of make up for that, or what does that part look like?
Clare Chapman:I kind of feel with it that you know, this is all powerful in combination. So video is great, it's definitely engaging and that's what's capturing people's attention. Then you've got still images and I think really they are still the iconic representations of architecture. It's lasting and that's sort of what people remember. You know it's one image, or with video, you know that they'll remember the space or you know what it was, one element of it. And then I think you know you've got those written articles and all together that's a really powerful marketing package, you know, for architects and it's. It is engaging, giving people that choice. You know, do they want to video? Do they want to look at these beautiful images? Do they want to read about it? It's that's where you sort of get that um, I guess the wider picture, isn't it?
Ben Sutherland:yeah and, as you're saying, they are doing kind of two different things. I'd probably watch a video once, but I would like to sit there and open that book like 10 times before the next issue comes out.
Sam Brown:In many ways, as you say, the photos are long form for sure but it's interesting because with a video, if you see something you like, what do do you? Do you pause it right, so you can spend more time with the still image I have literally never paused a video. Do you not? I do not pause it.
Ben Sutherland:I do it all the time.
Sam Brown:I've never thought about pausing it If something's really interesting, right, you kind of pause it and try and understand it a little bit more. Maybe that's just the designer mentality, right. You kind of know well, why is that.
Ben Sutherland:That's. If you don't have, I would definitely Google it and, like you know, see what other work they've done and that sort of thing for sure, yeah, but if you don't have stills on hand but you force the stills upon yourself.
Sam Brown:You know it's interesting. You're saying that all these things work hand in hand, because I think this circles back to talking about the way that potential clients digest this sort of stuff. I see video as being that introduction to a project a lot of the times, that quick understanding of what it's about, and if something interests you then you go seeking that further time with that project or with that piece of work, whatever it may be, and that could be looking at stills, it could be reading a magazine article. It could be reading a magazine article, it could be reading even a long-form essay about it or something Maybe like a tear process with depths that you want to go into a project video at the top and written word maybe kind of not at the bottom.
Sam Brown:That sounds negative but you know, like sort of the deeper you dive, the more nuanced it gets a little bit. In a world where design speaks louder than words, what story does your space tell? At Autex Acoustics, they believe great design is more than aesthetics. Every product they create strikes a perfect balance between form, function and sustainability. Made to enhance how space sounds, looks and feels, from using recycled materials to pioneering carbon-negative wool, their commitment is to help you shape environments that inspire people and respect the planet. Explore the future of acoustics design at autexacousticsconz.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, I think we've gotten to a point where in the media, particularly whether it's Instagram or Facebook or YouTube, we are starting to question is that real or is it not? And so, because we have a well, my assumption, I'm 167, so maybe a 21 year old might see this differently, but I've got quite an appetite for things that are authentic, you know, and that I know are real and were crafted and worked on. Blood, sweat and tears were involved. And so we're at a point now where we question whether something is authentic. So, by virtue of that, I think we've gotten to a point where we have now a value decision to make around what we're looking at, and when we know something is real, then we're able to, I think, spend our time with that differently, make different set of value decisions, spend our time with that differently, make different set of value decisions around our experience with that.
Simon Devitt:Stills and video could, could and can easily be be doctored, you know, and be made on a hard drive somewhere. So, um, we have that sense at least that something is real and authentic. I think we we do value it differently and I think that's going to grow, or my, my suspicion is, it'll grow. Maybe the 21-year-olds don't want that or don't care about that, I'm not sure, but my suspicion is that they do.
Sam Brown:I think that depth of reality kind of comes from like we've talked about those layers of project presentation stills, video and written. It's quite hard, I feel like it would be very hard to manufacture a project with all of those things, with all those things having any quality to them. If you know just video, fine, you can fabricate that, just stills, renders, you know dime a dozen these days, but then having but then written word and all those things allowed on top of each other. I think that's where you know that reality really comes in. 21, 21-year-old Simon, you mentioned TikTok generation. Do you think that? Do you see there being more of a focus towards digesting and like moving image over anything else? Or do you I mean like, clearly, 90 Minutes on Home Magazine kind of proves otherwise, which is awesome, yeah, but do you see a shifting momentum towards the video aspect over anything else at the moment?
Simon Devitt:I can think back to when I spent 10 years lecturing at uni, sitting down, talking, discussing making work with 23rd-year architecture students, and they deeply care about getting revenge on pixels. They love making like in the studios. They're making models. There's pva on their hands and stanley knives everywhere and we were, you know, in my studio. We were making a photo books like we were absolutely physical photo books.
Simon Devitt:Physical photo books, physical photo books, and that involved making book dummies and printing photos. We had disposable cameras, we were at it. Our sort of pixel footprint, if you like, was being heavily weighed in on. And yes to the pixels, like great Instagram's telling us to absorb a lot of information, a lot of influence, very quickly through video, and they're deciding how we do view that by setting up stories and reels and things like that. I think wonderful, like to a point, but if that's all we have, I think there's a problem. I think if we have that and we can usefully compare not destructively compare what fast is by knowing what slow is, and I think slow is in the studio, it's crafting, it's making and it's, for me, getting revenge on the pixels.
Sam Brown:Yeah, there's sort of a sense of impermanence, I feel, with video to a degree. There's something that's really tangible and long-lasting with something physical like a magazine, a book. So we have architecture books in the studio, biden books, 20th century. You know that massive 20th century architecture, one that was produced in 2010 or something. It's wildly out of date now, but it's a beautiful look at and it's just as inspirational, you know. But I can't see a lot of people these days purchasing books like they used to to digest, or purchasing magazines like they used to digest architecture, but I actually think it's the most purest way of doing it. It just seems a shame that, like you said, instagram's sort of starting to structure the way we view things.
Ben Sutherland:I often watch a lot of those little, you know, short clips, um, mainly on youtube, but I guess instagram as well. One thing I wish there was more of and I'm sure they are out there, but it's actually like hard to kind of dig them out is actually more long form videos, claire. Have you guys ever thought about doing something like a little bit longer? I would say even the local project is quite short. You do get through one building, but without getting into a documentary is short the way to go, or is that just kind of like the start? And then is there like space for long form as well, to kind of really dive into the story?
Clare Chapman:And is there space for long form as well, to kind of really dive into the story? I think definitely there is space for longer form. But I mean for us, you know, as a media outlet, I guess it's volume. So you know, we are dealing with so many different projects and actually creating space for each of them. It's a whole nother proposition, I think, to create much longer form video and whether there is more value in that potentially. But I think, you know, that sort of shorter length gives us the leeway to tell the story of a project, I think, in enough detail so it's palatable and understandable and relatable, without sort of, you know, investing into more of that documentary length.
Sam Brown:There's sort of nothing between that sort of 10 to 15-minute project expose and feature-length documentary which, a lot of the time, is more about the architect or the designer themselves than a specific building, except for something like Grand Designs. Right, but that's so focused on drama.
Ben Sutherland:I guess you're right. Yeah, that is an example, though, isn't it?
Sam Brown:It is an example, for sure, but I think it's not a great example of portraying a project like the realities of the project. In a way it's dramatized right. So it would be interesting if something was to kind of fall into that hour-long, maybe 45-minute to hour-long space, whereas a little bit more in depth you almost think that maybe for a single building it's too much time to tell the story Just maybe you know, if you're looking at it from the whole process, right from the beginning.
Clare Chapman:You know before it's out of the ground and through construction. I think there's so much scope. It just depends where you want to go with it, doesn't it?
Sam Brown:It's a lot of narrative for an architect to do, though, yeah. That would be a process in itself Probably need quite a bit of storyboarding.
Clare Chapman:Yeah, couldn't go with the flow on that one, I don't think.
Sam Brown:Otherwise it would be just really.
Simon Devitt:I was going to say otherwise. It would just be really juicy content. But now we're just back to grand designs again, aren't we? It's really entertainment, isn't it? And so it depends on on the intention and our kind of reality tv states of mind really are looking for tv like that, or entertainment like that, or or seven or eight minute videos and not, you know, 25 minute videos. Um, some of the tv shows of the past david mitchell's tv show back in the 80s was was about single projects, and that was the appetite for then. It's not the appetite for now because our intention is different, the way we're selling or what we're selling is different.
Sam Brown:So I think, yeah, it's a lot about intention we come up with, like a reality tv, like love island, love for architects, or something as you're trying, trying, trying to. You're trying to find the right client for a building that you've designed.
Simon Devitt:You'd be great on love building.
Sam Brown:Just love building, just really lean into it.
Ben Sutherland:So, yeah, you buy some architecturally designed homes that have come up on Trade Me and try and sell them to the general public.
Sam Brown:Yeah, yeah I don't know man, it's a format worth exploring. I don't know man it's. It's a format worth exploring, I don't know. I think it's hilarious popular content. That's yeah, yeah, reality tv, but based around architecture, just helps bring us more to the fore that would be funny do you see yourself doing any doing more um more video stuff or just sort of sticking?
Ben Sutherland:with it More TikTok.
Sam Brown:Yeah, more TikTok or dancing in front of your videos, but do you see yourself like trending more in that direction or is it still a balance, or is it still more, still focused? Following on from that question to Claire about do you see things moving more in the video direction or not, I'm trying to get a handle on where the people that provide this content for us, yourselves, where your heads, are at with it all, because I see videos starting to start to dominate no, I think there's.
Simon Devitt:There's, from my perspective. There's a desire for both, still, some video. The camera manufacturers and their technicians sort of marketing departments put all of those features on one beautiful, relatively inexpensive camera, so it's all available to us. So the expectation is that photographers or videographers can now do both and show up and offer both, and so it looks like video and stills are cousins, but in my experience they're more like very, very distant relatives. They're two very, very different things and should be treated carefully and treated as such. So for me I'm very mindful that they are very different. I avoided shooting video for quite a long time for the simple reason that I didn't feel like I needed to or wanted to. But I got to a point where I felt like I could have those two things sit well together and work with each other, not against each other.
Sam Brown:And did the demand start to come a little bit more from ourselves when commissioning work from you as well?
Simon Devitt:It started more with me making speculative video clips and shoots and I remember the actual first thing I did was at Pete Bosley's Waterfall Bay House in the Marlborough Sounds Michael Saracen's place, and it was a pretty intimidating place to turn up to. Michael Saracen, who's who's shot more um academy award-winning films than you could throw a sledgehammer at, and um uh, an incredibly articulate, very passionate, incredible cook and great company who makes sure your wine glass is full as well. So it was a very interesting weekend. We had a power cut, we had a storm, we had sunshine and I was able to make the video that I wanted to make, then recorded Pete talking about the house as a voiceover to accompany the video. So that was my first experience and something that I had imagined making and set out to make and made it.
Simon Devitt:Looking back on it, I don't think it's that great. It's good. It's got all the intention and all the ingredients that I think make it interesting. Would I do it differently now? Of course I would, but as a first attempt at video with some interesting audio and a very small kind of I think, six or seven-minute clip, it's good. I like it.
Sam Brown:Was Pete? Given that you kind of instigated that, what was Pete's response as the architect? Was he like oh, this is something new for us to digest. Was he sort of a different? Was it excitement, something that he'd like to do more?
Simon Devitt:I think he really enjoyed it. At the time we recorded the audio off-site. We weren't even there together. I was there for Condé Nast doing a shoot for their magazine and went to other properties around New Zealand for that same feature, so I had another reason to be there. But I had plenty of time up my sleeve and the local New Zealand Canon rep was trying to sell me some very expensive video gear. So he was there helping me and I made sure I had everything I needed, which was good, good fun.
Sam Brown:Nice and Claire, are you finding that there's more? Do you demand, I guess, in doing features for projects? Is there an expectation from you that video accompanies the imagery, or do you? Are you finding that architects are sending that to you more regularly, given that we're sort of the ones trying to get stories? Or, from our perspective, I feel like we're seeing more, a lot more power in video than we used to, and I'm just wondering if there's the appetite for it from the publishing side.
Clare Chapman:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm not sure about others, but our thing has. I guess our ethos now is to try and film everything that we cover. So we've sort of been building up to that and we're getting quite close to achieving that now. So what we want to do is, you know, for every feature, we've got the beautiful stills, we've got the story and the video, and often short is, you know, for every feature, we've got the beautiful stills, we've got the story, um, and the video, and often short, you know very short clips as well. So it just allows us to really market each project and and get it to every different audience in the way that they want it, um, and so we, we create all our video ourselves, rather than I've never had an architect send send us a video. So it's's something that we sort of do.
Ben Sutherland:And is that for every, do you kind of target most platforms as well, now as in, like you know, instagram and YouTube and whatnot?
Clare Chapman:Yeah, yeah, all of them, Apart from TikTok, which is our sort of growing child that we're working on. But apart from that, yeah, we're across everything, and video is on everything too.
Ben Sutherland:And just out of curiosity, are there some platforms that do better than others?
Clare Chapman:Yeah, I mean, I think they're all different, aren't they? So obviously you know YouTube with their short speech and that sort of content on there. It's a different, you know, we will sort of create different content for different channels. So what will work on YouTube and pique the interest of that audience will be different to what works on Instagram or on the website. So it's just sort of understanding, I guess, what works for each channel and who the audiences are.
Sam Brown:Before we kind of go, do you guys have any final thoughts, statements on the role of video or moving image or where it might be going, or just anything in that ilk?
Clare Chapman:I think, obviously, you know, video is huge and it'll be a big part of our future, especially, you know, as all these channels evolve and I think that mix of sort of short form and cinematic and how they complement still imagery, just yeah, it's the way of the future, isn't it? It's something we're all working towards.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, I think to pick up where Claire left off. There. I feel, even after 30 years of pointing a camera at architecture and the world and what we're all up to and how that all looks, I genuinely feel like I'm just getting started and video is sort of a latecomer into that picture for me. It's only really in the last maybe 12 years that I've really taken that seriously and that's been a slow trajectory. For me it hasn't been a wholesale all-in decision. I've sort of just really put my feet in the water initially, but I'm really enjoying the results I'm getting from it. I enjoy collaborating with people and video is definitely potentially more collaborative than stills. But together, I think, is how I like it. I like to shoot both and I like to shoot both on the same day and my clients seem to love that.
Sam Brown:We've had stills forever and we've digested stills forever and they've been such a strong precedent and informer, I guess, for any of us really along our design journeys, whether you're an architect or an artist or whatever really a photographer, magazine editor, I'd say that we've all been pretty influenced by the still image. But I think that the moving image has started to have a bit more of an impact, you know, ever since the inception of YouTube really, and it continues to grow, I think, and I know we see that in demands of the industry. So I think it's something to certainly be aware of. If you are commissioning work or looking to publish your work or looking to get your work out there, it's moving images probably Something to consider pretty strongly I'd say Thank you both for coming on today.
Ben Sutherland:Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure. It's always a pleasure, it's always a pleasure.
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