Design Principles Pod
Architecture. A hot topic, a buzz word, a realm for the rich and famous, or the thing that your step uncle does? We will be unpacking the good, the bad and the downright reality of the architectural and construction industry. With insights from industry professionals and personal anecdotes from our three hosts Ben, Gerard and Sam, you will be given a look behind the closed pages of those fancy looking moleskins. Tune in and redline out.
Design Principles Pod
Your Beam Is Too Big: Architects & Engineers
Start with a flooded hotel room, end with a four‑metre cantilever, and in between unpack the messy, creative space where structure meets form. We sit down with structural engineer Joel Marsh of Pocket to map out how architects and engineers can move beyond transactional deliverables and into a truly design‑led process that saves money, reduces RFIs, and produces cleaner, more elegant buildings.
Joel opens the playbook: meet early, sketch by hand at 10–15%, and use those concept drawings to align intent before any modelling lock‑in. From there, general arrangement plans become a shared workspace for spatial fit, and detailed coordination happens before consent so builders aren’t left juggling “garden salad details” on site. We talk real value vs low fees, the hidden cost of conservative members, and why a readable calculation package should tell a story of load paths, stiffness, and performance that architects and builders can follow at a glance.
Materials get a clear‑eyed treatment. Timber is brilliant when it fits the constraints; steel and concrete still win in the right places. Joel walks through post‑tensioned slab logic, a prefabricated mountain hut helicoptered into place, and what it took to pull off a four‑metre cantilevered floor. We also touch on AI’s limits: it can automate parts, but it can’t replace the creative judgement that balances cost, constructability, and design intent. The through‑line is respect and shared language—because the best buildings reflect a professional consensus, not a one‑sided mandate.
If you care about better drawings, simpler details, fewer RFIs, and a smoother path from concept to construction, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share with your project team, and leave a review to tell us the one collaboration habit you want to see more often.
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Meek Dashound, a collab between Air New Zealand and Parrot Dog. Short-bodied and high-flying, this NZIPA burst with tropical fruit notes and a relaxed bitterness. Brewed with NZH 109 hops for smooth landings and laid-back getaways. Read one exclusively on selected flights and the main Air New Zealand lounges. Nice. This week we chat with structural engineer Joel Marsh from Pocket. Joel brings a point of view to the relationship between architecture and engineering that all in the design field would appreciate. We kick things off just as Joel has had to relocate hotel rooms due to a bit of a plumbing issue, and then dive into creativity, collaboration, black holes, and the burning question, what is the biggest cantilever you have designed? We hope you enjoyed high drama.
SPEAKER_00:So I've literally just got myself into another room now. But they moved you. I'm not joking. It was a swimming pool in there. It was hilarious.
SPEAKER_05:Absolute panic stations. That's the worst place. Are you on are you are you on like an upper level?
SPEAKER_00:I was like 10th floor. Shit. And now down. I was thinking, it's gonna flood all the other rooms, it's gonna go down through the floor. It's like just volumes of water.
SPEAKER_05:A funny story. I had a friend who um like ran a bath in a hotel and then fell asleep and forgot that she'd run the bath and just it just kept going and absolutely tanked the place. I can't remember what she said, but it was it was in like the hundreds of thousands of buttons worth of damage. Man. It's brutal. Brutal.
SPEAKER_00:Why wouldn't are you up there for a bit? Just at night, just tonight.
SPEAKER_05:So you're still running the washing machine.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I am I'm yeah, so I'm just just here for a night. I sort of come up, I try and come up every couple of weeks if I can. Because we've got we've got a guy on the pocket team that's based up here, so it's normal. St. Helias. In St. Helias, yeah, that's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:I walk past pretty much every day, so. Do you go past it? Yeah, well that's well, you know, like uh walk down the waterfront and back.
SPEAKER_00:Nice one. Yeah, so how do you find like working working with a remote team? I guess we're j I guess like we're getting to grips with it, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I don't want to sort of sit here and say it's it's all roses. Like there's definitely challenges, more like more challenges, I guess, than if you were just in person.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But I I've got to be thankful for Daniel. He's been up for that, and he's been up for the sort of unknown of that and just how we kind of figure it out and navigate it. So I think overall, overall it's been good, but yeah, certainly some stuff to to figure out. And I guess like one of the biggest things is just you know helping him feel like he's part of the fold.
SPEAKER_05:And yeah, it's a tough one. Yeah, not feeling isolated.
SPEAKER_06:Is he new? Did you say?
SPEAKER_00:He's actually been with us 18 months now. Okay, that's different.
SPEAKER_06:He's well integrated. He's he's been like, that's like as old as my whole company.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's been with us a wee while. Yeah, time time goes quicker. I think one of the things we've done reasonably well is just try and get him down, like every every so often. So he'll normally come down for a couple of three nights or something, can just kind of mesh in and be in the be in the team. Yeah. And do you have jobs?
SPEAKER_06:Do you have jobs up here? So at least you can kind of look after them if you do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've got a few. We've got a few we've got a few running. I guess that's been new as well, just trying to I guess get to get to new. Enter a new market. Enter a new market and become a national firm. I think that's um uh maybe a bit strong, but I think no, we we we we we'd like to. We would we would like to. I think for me with Daniel, I'd met him and it was kind of like well, he he's he's really well aligned. He he kind of understands what we're trying to do and I kind of shifted into how do we how do we get him on the team rather than the reasons we can't, sort of thing. Just try to think outside the square. I could sense he was up for thinking a bit differently as well, and just yeah, bit the bullet and went for it. But it's it's not it's not easy, you know. You come in, you know, we we came in like knowing we needed to try and drum that work up here. It wasn't going to be sort of a sustainable thing to kind of feed in with work from Christchurch, so we needed to work on relationships and just getting out there and getting our name out there and all that.
SPEAKER_05:Quite a cool way to drive it though, with the you know, the ambition of what you're looking to do. Forefront rather than coming up getting the work and then trying to fill the void.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I think so. There's probably pros and cons, I reckon. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've we've definitely we've definitely p picked up some some good stuff. Yeah, we're we're more known in Christchurch than we are in Auckland, that's just reality at the moment, but we're just trying to trying to get the profile up there. I guess the key thing is just trying to communicate what what we're about and why it's different, maybe. Yeah. To kind of maybe some other engineers, I guess.
SPEAKER_05:It's a good segue into what we're gonna chat about. Yeah, that yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. That is good. That's the long-winded intro. Thanks, Joel. That's good. No, I think prison that I wanted to get you on for been thinking about this chat for a while, but just wanted to have a chat about the uh intersection of architecture and engineering, really, and you guys being a really design-led engineering firm where you know the architecture outcomes just as important as making sure the thing doesn't fall over. Um, it's always been something that's been really forefront. And we've worked together in the past and known each other for a while and thought it'd just be cool to get you on and pick your brains and have a yarn about our two sectors and how they can combine and create better buildings, really.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, man, I think it's definitely my favourite subject. I think that I think the biggest thing is I think it starts with just like trying to understand from an engineer's perspective. I think it's trying to understand what an architect is wanting to do. And some of it I feel boils down to some almost quite basic stuff, but is often, I think, not done or not done, not done well. So like a big thing we talk about is just let's have some good comms, especially at the start. Like let's like we we're we're we're pretty big on, hey, can can we actually have a meeting? Can we just because we'd just like to hear from from you guys what it is you're trying to achieve. Because I think so often you sort of receive a a set of architectural plans and straight away with that, it's also almost unknowingly, you're making assumptions about about what's important. You just do, and you sort of go in there and you start, you know, you start doing your engineering thing, you go, well, I'll put this in here and and then actually put put that 300 AB in in here.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I was just I was just complaining to Ben complaining those spans. I was just complaining to Ben Joel that we've got this, it's a small batch in Riversdale, and the engineer for that is designed 410 UB for about a it's not that big of a span, it might be eight to ten meter beam, and I'm like, that is just it's just too big.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely savage. Yeah. Yeah, and I think you know, the skillful bit is is understanding what the constraints are, you know. And we we think we have learned you can't do that without without conversating. So that's been a massive, massive thing. And then I think what that unlocks is you kind of you can then get a feel for what it is you're actually trying to achieve. So even if something that's on paper at that stage, it might be that we can propose or say something else and still be achieving that that objective, even if what's shown on the paper isn't quite aligned to that at that point. And you definitely can't reach that place without conversation and really understanding what you're trying to achieve. So I think it's just trying to reach that nice balance. And I think in the early days, like straight up, like I think we probably um fell a little bit on the side of we'll just make what what work, you know, what the architect wants on these plans, we'll make it work, but sometimes it does it just doesn't stack up like financially or whatever, and so and so and we've we've had to really grow in our skill of just like being confident to to talk and kind of really express some of the thinking behind it.
SPEAKER_06:And like when someone's trying to, I don't know, keep like a ceiling thin or a wall thin or something, so you kind of have to like throw a lot of structural elements in there in order to make it achieve what the their design outcome essentially and that ends up costing a lot more money than expected. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about?
SPEAKER_00:I think so. And sometimes that solution's already on paper, and then it's like, oh crap, we need to change that. But actually, if we'd just had a conversation, we'd have understood, well, that wasn't actually that wasn't actually quite as sensitive as we had assumed. Think I I I think some of it is sounds like 101 stuff, but just communicating really well. I think the other thing we've done that um I heard a big syndrome a lot was what I call the engineering black hole, which is which you probably get a feel for what it is straight away, but it's like it goes off to an engineer and it literally goes into a black hole and then it pops out the other side and it's precisely what you didn't want.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I was about to say this when you're talking about this collaboration side of things. I mean, so often and a lot of it I think stems from when, from my point of view, I try and control the project team as much as possible. Because you want to work with people that you one work well with, know what outcomes you're gonna get, and ultimately it's gonna be the best for both worlds. But you know, you've got to respect it as a client's decision at the end of the day. And those times when you do get saddled with uh, well, it's maybe a bit critical, but they're saying it's saddled with someone, you know, that you don't necessarily jail with, or maybe that's not that into but working collaboratively, you're right. You literally like go, here are our plans, let's have a chat about it, and you don't hear from them for months. And then all of a sudden there's a there's a solution that's given, and you're like, what is this?
SPEAKER_00:A big thing I talk about is there's a quite a famous quote actually, but basically it's this idea of that there's many engineering solutions to problems, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So so a lot of people seem to think, I think, that engineering solutions are singular. They're not, right? What I mean by that is there's many solutions to a problem, but the trick, I think, is finding a good solution to the problem that is balancing the constraints. And I don't think you can come up with a good solution without really understanding from your guys' perspective as architects what it is you're trying to achieve. That's a massive, massive thing. And then I think there's a drift or there's this tendency in the industry, um, which which I find upsetting, but like let's just name it, it's there where it becomes quite transactional between an architect and an engineer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And like we're trying to work on it being relational. Um, you know, there's that difference between we're actually trying to understand um you guys, you know, what's important, what's what your drivers are. Whereas when it's transactional, it's like, you know, here's the architectural plans, I'd, you know, I'll get my engineering back. It doesn't, it doesn't lend itself to good solutions. It might may well be a solution, but chances are it's not a good one.
SPEAKER_05:I always find it frustrating when the engineers or and it goes both ways, really, when you're asking for drawings at key endpoints stages, they're like, when you've finished your detail design, give me the drawings and I'll do my blah blah blah. Or like once you finish your details, then we'll do our engineering. Well, we should really be working in tandem to make sure that this thing sings, you know, and I think that's where, you know, that's that's where the successful outcomes get will fall will fall down, is when it's transactional. I mean, based on that, Joel, when ideally for you, what's the what's the best time to get involved in day one?
SPEAKER_00:I think as reasonably early as you can, like obviously I don't think we're gonna be there quite as early as you guys, because you you're doing that really formative stuff of of of understanding what a client wants to achieve. So it probably wants to be in a in a you know, having a drawing obviously is is a is the starting point. And sometimes we do actually get people to come to us and know drawings and we just have to say, well, we need to sort of see something. But then I so then I think so I think as early as reasonably possible, because I think it's often overlooked, but like a good engineer can actually unlock some opportunities, and the earlier you're in, the the the higher the chances are that you can, especially if it's coupled with having good conversations. And then I think another big thing we've learned to sort of like mitigate that whole issue of the black hole syndrome is like just really working on our stages and how we break it down. So for us, we have a really deliberate like concept design stage, and that's always done by the senior experience engineers, and they that's that's that's a massive just thinking stage. So it's kind of like post we've had this conversation with you guys, and then the experienced engineer goes away and comes up with the structural solution to the problem, and we'll actually hand sketch that and deliver it to you very early on, like super early, like at 50-15%.
SPEAKER_05:That was something that I was gonna raise because I know that you guys do that, and what I like about that is engineering can sometimes feel so final, it has to be that way because ultimately the building can't fall down, you know. Or you know, the the structural solution has to work, but I like the fact that you guys do do that, you know, you do it by hand because it it doesn't, even though obviously a lot of thinking and everything's gone into it, it doesn't feel at that stage set in stone. There feels like there's flexibility, which is quite nice from an architect's point of view, because you I feel like we can then challenge things and continue that dialogue and that conversation a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely. I mean, you know, like that's our interpretation of that problem at that stage, and we we issue that, and that's really I mean it's really sounds silly, right? It sounds basic, but we issue it. So we issue that that set, and what it and and the whole purpose is to facilitate further conversation. Go, you know, how how does this how does this work? You know, obviously we want to achieve the 101 stuff of is this working with your envelope, that kind of stuff. But just getting that in early rather than this black hole thing, all the design's been done and got to the end. We want to try and be making com making conversation through the process. And I think we've found it really good. It's an opportunity for early collab collaboration and coordination really early on, so we kind of can shape it into the right space early rather than too late when it when it is too late.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Do you find that you have engineering style, so to speak? So I guess like is it like more of an exposed aesthetic where you're kind of like trying to expose more of raw structure whenever possible and actually have the structural engineering elements become part of the architecture itself, as opposed to you know just concealing everything, or is that kind of thing driven from the I think that's an all- I think that's an awesome question.
SPEAKER_00:It comes up a lot. I think the skill is been to try and understand what is driving you guys because on a particular project you you may be wanting to actually have some express structure. You might you might, and that might be part of the solution. Other times we've got other guys, they just want it totally hidden, and that's a certain level of skill, certain level of skill as well. But I think it goes back to the earlier bit of like the real skill is understanding, having communicated that. Do we understand what you're trying to achieve? And if we have, then we're far better placed to get a good solution rather than one that's um something that's particularly driven by us. Does it make sense?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I like that level of flexibility.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's a higher level of skill as well. Like, you know, one of the things I talk about with the team a lot, you know, is if a detail becomes all and more important if it's in your living room, right? Like if if you can see it and it's in your living room, we gotta get that right. It can't be some hoary, like weldy, well above your beard thing. You know, that might work structurally, but we we we've got to have a bit more finesse than that, and that probably leads me on to my next point of like how we layer up from there. So we have that concept stage, but then we have a very definite developed design stage where we produce a 3D model, but we only issue general arrangement, what I would call general arrangement drawings, plans and sections, elevations, and it's solely with the purpose to get it spatially coordinated with you guys. So it's it's it's again, it's like I'm saying it as it feels so basic, but the good thing is you haven't detailed you haven't detailed so the the primary purpose at phase is we then issue that to you and we do it in PDF but also like in a PD format, you can bring it in and just check is it is everything fitting nicely.
SPEAKER_05:There's still flexibility there, right? You know, there's still that room for coordination. I think the the black hole syndrome, that the coordination completely goes out the window because there's a point in the project where both parties are finished but they haven't really talked to each other. Whereas if you're continuing throughout the course, you know, I think that's pretty cool. And I like I kind of like the fact that you're never you're not ever giving away it's not that you're never giving away the full picture, but it's no different than the way that we operate in the sense that we very rarely we could go for directly from concept design to detailed design if the client wanted to. But the old design outcome is going to be far lesser because you haven't had the time to develop and go through nuance and come up with real, you know, proper, clean, well-considered solutions. But I feel so often, from an engineering point of view, what you're speaking to is you you guys kind of follow our pattern of project stages rather than the more traditional, maybe not traditional, but for maybe more common engineering approach where it's sort of like, okay, yep, this is the structural solution conceptually, and here's how it's done. And that's basically it, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I just see it like it's a layered, it should be a layered up process, right? How can you how can you possibly move from A to B without having touch points in between? Like you've you've got to, in my opinion. And then I think what it does is it creates confidence. So if we have a really good coordination stage there, just spatially getting the structure fitting within the envelope, then then both parties are detailing with confidence. We start detailing with confidence. We're not like you do not have times I've seen details done, and then fundamentally this position of a member just doesn't work.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's useless, man.
SPEAKER_06:You're definitely reducing the need to redo anything. So it definitely makes a lot of sense to me.
SPEAKER_00:It does, and like, you know, we again before we go for consent, we'll issue you detailed design sets, so it's fully detailed, and it's like I think what we find often is a lot of the details you guys wouldn't be too fussed about because it's it's hidden or whatever, but it might be a handful where it's like that's a really important detail, how that looks, and and you can see you know how we're proposing to do that. And again, it's an opportunity for you just to go, yeah, that works really well, or you might need to tweak that because of this, which we haven't quite understood or seen or whatever. And again, it's just just it's just how you layer up, you know, what you're focusing on at what stage, you know, you want to go big picture and you want to be you want to be coming in. Whereas like if you just go back, like we could go straight to a solution, we could, and just like detail it in the dark.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But and and it and it it might be alright, but it's probably not gonna be alright. Yeah, it's like what you're battling with at the moment, Ben. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Just kind of general arrangement plans.
SPEAKER_06:What general arrangement details? There's so much. Yeah, at the moment, we've got some engineering issues on a quite a big project that we've uh we've got under construction at the moment where they've just used a lot of typical details, and so it's so ambiguous that it's impossible to know what typical detail uh is required at what junction. And so, like four or five times a day, we're getting these little hand sketches from the engineer being like, use this, use this here, use this there, and it's just such a handbrake, it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00:Man, do you know what I call that? I got an expression for that, it's called garden salad details. Yeah. But it is it's like that. It's like lit, but you know, and I think so so that so then the hard bit of it, I think the hard bit that we then face, because we're doing something a bit different and wanting to operate a bit differently, put in the industry, we rubber again, like we want that more relational approach and more considered to get a better outcome, which I think overall is better, if you see what I mean. But obviously, there's more naturally there's more cost involved. Yeah. So there's more than that. You have to be more rigorous up front. Exactly. There's more cost involved for us. And and right now, we're getting savaged because the market's difficult. So everyone goes bang, we just go, race to the bottom, race to the bottom, super transactional, transactional. And then we are we have we have a real quandary because that's not that's not our offering.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. It's funny that literally we have to sell ourselves, you know, as architects more or less in the same light. Unless you've got a really well-established reputation and you've got clients kind of knocking on your door. I literally had, you know, made that exact same spell like a couple of weeks ago. The expectation is you're like you're working for next to nothing.
SPEAKER_05:But it's a matter of then being able to appropriately portray your expertise and your niche and why you're going to you is a better solution. And I think what we're leading to, Joel, there is okay, a little bit of extra fee up front, sure. But ultimately, in the end of the end of the day, you're not going to have a shit ton of RFIs on site or through council, or the engineering solution is going to be massively over-engineered. So instead of us taking the time to consider and think about a smaller member here or timber over steel there or whatever, the cheap engineer might just go, just whack something conservative in there, and you've ended up paying for double the amount of steel you need to, kind of situation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Speaking of yeah, we'd lose we lose context for it totally. We a good solution might save you 200 grand. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's mental. Yeah. Yeah. So well, if you if you if your fee was, I don't know, 10 grand more, it's a no-brainer, right?
SPEAKER_06:I guess like from their perspective, the expectation might be that if they're getting the same engineering service from everyone. Sure. So you have to sell yourself as to why you're ten thousand dollars more than other engineers.
SPEAKER_00:That's the Ben, that's so topical. Like that's something we're we're really looking at because we we're we're confident in what we're doing. The biggest thing for us is we like what we do, like we've seen the benefits of it. Like it makes the whole process more enjoyable. Like a big a big part of it is we're there to make uh um life easier for architecture, but it shouldn't be we shouldn't be at loggerheads.
SPEAKER_05:No, you know, and I think that's what so often architects will bitch and moan. Uh I was bitching and moaning today about an engineer.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I get it.
SPEAKER_05:So often, so often we'll do that when ultimately we are on the same team. We're trying to build the same building. What why are we why are we at loggerheads?
SPEAKER_06:Oh man, that is that's yeah, that's throwing other people under the bus to make yourself look good is classic construction.
SPEAKER_00:It's insidious in the industry, isn't it? Yeah, it's so bad. I did this, um we were in the Here magazine, the last one up, and they and they had sort of asked me a couple of questions, and one of the ones that came through, which I thought was really good, is exactly what you just said, Sam, like engineers and architects are often seen in opposition. And there was this quote that I gave, which I think is at the heart of it, which is uh Stephen Covey quotes, he's like this leadership guy, and he basically says that um you you need to um seek first to understand, then to be understood. But the problem is most of us, and even just outside of in life in general, but if if you think about engineers and architects, we want to be we want to be understood first before we then understand.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So there's this thing of like just flipping the script and going, yeah, I think differently to Sam and I think differently to Ben, that's a good thing. But the fact that Sam and Ben think differently to me is also a really good thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And the skill, the skill is to be able to come together and try and understand like language is a big thing. Like, why do we sketch? We want a common language. I don't want some technical, bloody like yeah, there's some technical aspects to engineering, but I want some commonality in where where we can meet. Yeah. In a zone that we can both understand and we can we can start working on our language. But you know, some of this stuff, it just it's not a it's not a thing for people, right? Like, and we just go into that default mode of Yeah, I'll go to my corner and you'll run to your corner and we'll all be throwing shit at each other.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, it's it's like this little little speech I used to like tell the council inspectors every time every time we weren't agreeing. I'd be like, look, mate, we're sitting on the same side of the table. Like, we both want the same thing. We want to achieve the same thing. Like, let's just work together to find a solution.
SPEAKER_05:It's funny because it's yeah, it's not just architects and engineers, it's everybody. It's literally every consultant, it's sometimes the client, it's counsel. Everyone seems to, at some point anyway, seems to be working against each other. It's like this is common goal. What are we doing?
SPEAKER_00:It's no, it's absolutely no good.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, you can see why that happens and why it plays out, and it takes for someone in the mix to be brave and and do do it differently, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Do you reckon that's why you, Joel, you seem to like when you set Pocket up, you seemed to start it with the approach of kind of like and the way that you structure the your deliverables as well, mirroring the architectural process. Was that fully intentional to try and like marry the two a little bit more?
SPEAKER_00:I think definitely so, Sam. And um, but there was this aspect for it for me is like always this feeling like this could be so much more collaborative and so much more fun. And it's like as old as the hills, right? As a thing, you know, like everyone, everyone loves to say collaboration is great, but when collaboration needs to be great when the rubber hits the road, you know, and we need to be able to like we need to be able to come together. Like, I think for an engineer, we've got to understand, we've got to understand architects. We've got to understand what you're thinking about things. And the other thing, the other nuance about that is of course, like, like every engineer is not the same, not every architect's the same, right? So, and there's different drivers. So a big thing I talk about with the team is you've got to treat every project on its merit. Every project's different, every project's unique. Like, there's no cookie, like, we don't do any cookie cutter stuff. So we've got to be skillful enough to understand the particular constraints or the balance of those constraints on every project we work on. And that's a skillful place, you know. Like, if I just go hammer and tongue, right, I'm gonna do this exactly like I've done on another project, I'm gonna get it precisely wrong.
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SPEAKER_06:I noticed on your website that you obviously work with some amazing architects. You've done numerous um stuff like the likes of Bill O'Sulli Sullivan, you know, First Light and Ari Mae. And do you find that when you have a you're working for, you know, a repeated architect that you kind of already somewhat understand what they're looking for, or do you kind of go in with fresh eyes every time?
SPEAKER_00:I think that's a brilliant question. Again, I guess it depends a little bit like whether the relationship is new. And obviously, if it's newer, then we're we're doing more of that, doing more of that understanding work. Where we've got relationships with people where we've done sort of multiple projects, I guess we start to get a feel for you know what what will be important to them. But I'm I'm just yeah, I think it's really key that we still just are trying to have those conversations and and the biggest biggest red flag for me is just assumptions. If I sniff assumption if I sniff assumptions getting made, I'm crawling all later.
SPEAKER_06:That have never done done me any favours, assumptions.
SPEAKER_00:They they don't they don't do anyone any good.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm not I'm not exactly sat here going it goes perfectly every time because we the other thing is it it's that classic, you know, it takes two to tango, right? Like we we can have that outlook, but then if the architect doesn't, then the uh the transactional thing and the corners thing just actually ends up happening because you you've you've gotta you've kind of gotta come together and go, right, let's do this together. And um it's not it's not always easy, right? Like you you you you sort of try and um I guess explain Express how you want to be and and how you want to do things. Do you ever get projects where the architectural concept is not possible?
SPEAKER_05:Or if not necessarily possible, it's not possible with the within the vision of what the architect's trying to achieve, you know, in a real in a real sense. Because I think that's somewhere where obviously that conflict could arise and where you know you're talking about like the creativity and uh approaching every project on its on its merits, but is there ever any case where you're just like, sorry, mate?
SPEAKER_00:No. I think it does happen. I think in the early days we probably fell on the wrong side where we'd make we'd try and make things work at all costs, and that and therefore I think we've had to grow and like balance that with also being brave enough to say, you know, just as a as a thought, if you were if you could you could do this instead, does this still achieve, you know, like a classic might be that glass panel ain't gonna hold that building up? Yeah, or or like there's a post and it's like four metres back from the edge, but actually, if it was at two metres, it really makes it more efficient, but you still you still achieve that like can receiver effect or ever. And that that sort of thing only comes through conversation, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Did you know what I mean? If you're just in there and you're like assuming things or or whatever, you just and we're we're getting, you know, we're secure enough to go say that and then hear it back and go, no, that's really important. I need that to be like this. Fine, great. Nothing ventured, nothing gained in terms of just you know, being brave enough to kind of say.
SPEAKER_06:Um yeah, it's also might get them thinking about alternative design solutions anyway. So you can get creative with it and kind of you know, if something's not working, then you have to figure out the best possible outcome to make it work. So part of the process.
SPEAKER_05:How often are you, Joe, exploring new, like new avenues for that structural solution? I mean, if you think about if if if we go to the basic, you know, it's concrete, there's steel, there's timber, whether it be mass or whether it be stick. Like, do you guys with it even within that band, but outside of that, like how how much are you guys doing your own sort of RD and research or ex exploration into new or alternative structural techniques?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we're we're we're up for it, uh, for sure. I think um uh I'd I'd I'd also say that this is sort of I something to say to the team is that there's nothing new under the sun.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right? That that that's there's nothing new under the sun. And I think sometimes it's really easy engineers in particular like to do say, like, right, engineering is about having a brand new idea, but very rarely is that that's super unlikely to happen. That I've I I've talked about the guys like defining an idea more like more like the combination of things and in in a sense like you kind of the things that have have worked, but it's the combination of how those things come together to suit that particular project that's innovative. So that kind of makes sense. So yeah, that's been really helpful because it's moved us away from this. I think there can be a bit of a tendency in industry or something, or particularly with engineers where I need to do this new fang-dangled thing. You actually don't. You you can be innovative using tried and tested things, yes, exactly. But it's how they go together and how they fit within the constraint. And that's been really great for the team in terms of unlocking this idea that ideas um we are often imagine brand new things. And I'm saying actually an idea is often how you take old things and put them together in a new way.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that's been really enlightening for us. It's like meant we can, yeah, it's just like unlock things for us and gone, okay, you know, we could think about it like this. Could we do that? And then suddenly we're thinking, oh, that was an idea, but it might not have been, you know, the newest of newest things.
SPEAKER_06:Just adding to Sam's question, I guess, do you think that like the you're the engineering structural engineers kind of being influenced or anything by the likes of AI or anything like that? Do you think it's kind of having any effect in the industry? For for architecture, there's that doesn't seem to be too much, you know, significant stuff happening that's got an immediate effect, but there's a lot of innovating. There's a lot of innovating like happening around us that could, you know, in the near future change a few rules.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I think there's definitely I think there's definitely things like certain tasks and stuff that are naturally going to lend itself to AI. But I think the fundamentals of engineering, and it's not often seen like this. This is a big, this is a big difference, I think, in how we think is it's a really creative process, right? Like it's often seen as this sort of black and white, here's the scientific answer to this problem. And it's and it's kind of way more creative. And you a computer's not gonna do that, you know. Like you that's that's a skillful space where you're I talked to the guys about this, but it's hard um there's like that circus trick where you've got like a set of like cups or whatever, and you like throw one up in the air, you like throw one up in the air in the middle, and then you catch it again. You know that circus trip? Maybe not. Catch it like you catch a cup with a cup. Yeah, yeah, catch a cup with a cup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I talk about that like that's uh that's a bit like what it's like when you do concept design and how creative you're being. You've got all of these parameters and constraints, and a skillful bit is to be able to like pick out all of that and go bang, that's that's the cup out of the year. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And because it changes on each project.
SPEAKER_06:I guess it like the it's probably similar to the architecture industry, is the people that would probably benefit from AI and current AI advancements are probably the group home builder or spec builders, some you know, people that are kind of repeating the same thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think maybe where you've got like a really basic, um yeah, super basic set of constraints. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see interesting to see where it where it goes, I guess.
SPEAKER_05:But it's interesting because I feel like engineering in its in the simplest understanding of it, it seems like something that uh you know computer could take over, but like we're talking about, all you're gonna get is those basic solutions. Whereas your approach to it is from the more creative sense, it's just not gonna be the case. And we've talked we've talked quite a bit on this podcast about it and how architecture, you know, obviously can benefit from the caddy nature of of AI and how it can assist us on the side, but ultimately like the solution side of it and the creative side of it, it it can't really do. Would you ever see it just running the numbers for you, doing the nuts and bolts? I mean, do you do you take any pleasure in producing all those pages of calculations which we get given and quickly skim through or is that always a bit of a chore?
SPEAKER_06:The council like to think they look at it. Yeah. We the council pretend they look at it.
SPEAKER_00:We we do, but um that's again, we would sort of see that whole calculation space a bit differently anyway. I think it's seen as very just do the math, whereas for us it's way more about storytelling. So, yes, there's maths there, but it's more what story we're telling about this structure and how it's been designed. So I guess I can see, yeah, there's yeah, maybe maybe some things in there that would lend itself to that.
SPEAKER_05:That's quite an interesting take on like you know the calculation side of that, Joel. What do you what do you mean by getting you know the cut calculation side to tell the story of the structure? Because to me it seems just very black and white.
SPEAKER_00:I'm glad I'm glad an architect is asking me this. This is bloody good. I think uh what I see in the industry is a lot, which you you guys will be nodding at, is like print-offs from spreadsheets and like computer calculations that are just reams, you know, like masses of stuff that no bugger's ever gonna read. I'm an engineer and I'm not gonna read that. So for us, it's yeah, we might have done some calculations behind the scenes, but when we put a calculation package together, we want it to tell a story. So we want we want it to be supplemented with like really good sketches of what we're what we're at, you know, what what we've assessed or whatever. And as you go through the calculations, it actually should be something that's nice to look at. And we're we'd be pretty unusual in that space. So but that's a big thing we've done in the team. Like just yeah, I think enjoying the craft of what we do and having a bit more skill in, yeah, st I think storytelling's a big thing for us. Like, we want to tell a story, we want to tell a story with a cow, because we want to tell a story with our drawings. We want to, we want, we want something to be a pleasure. Like if you pick up a set of our drawings, we want it to be appealing on the eye, and something that anyone in our industry, and be it an architect or a builder, whoever's gonna look at our drawings and go, I get that, instantly get that. That's not it's not technical, it's not, it's not too it's it's clear. And and some of that I think you're right, like it's easy to arrive at complex, is what I say to a team. It's much harder to arrive at something simple than it is to arrive at something complex.
SPEAKER_05:I think in doing that, you must make it easier for to convince or to sell your concepts to the likes of us or or the builders as well.
SPEAKER_06:Whereas if a structural solution's come up with and we're given a, you know, like you said, reams and reams of calculations, I've got no buy-in, you know, it's just where is those I I think I think what Joel was trying to say originally was if you read through, if you know what you're looking for, which I would imagine you know, a good engineer would, and you're like reading through those calculations, I guess it's telling the story about how all of those structural components are working together, you know, to form the actual the strength or the backbone of the building. I I think that's that's kind of what I've picked up on it anyway.
SPEAKER_00:Forgive me if I'm wrong. No, no, no, you've got you've actually you've actually nailed that fundamentally. That's what I say to guys. All I say all, what we do is we come up with a structure and we just make sure it's strong enough and stiff enough for whatever intended purpose. It's real core if you really boil it down, right? And and the people think it's about strength, but often it's about stiffness. You know, you've you probably had it where you know, if a beam, if a beam deflects too much, cause problems, right? So like that that's at the core what we do. And so that calculation story is just taking them on a journey of saying, here's our structure, this is how it all interrelates, and here's how we've made sure it's strong enough and stiff enough to achieve its intended purpose.
SPEAKER_06:I think there's like there's almost a potentially a disconnect on the architect's front in terms of how some of those structural elements actually work. Because it's not until you have spent some time on site and you've put those bracing elements in and you've connected it to the ceiling diaphragm and bolted it down to the floor to achieve that rigidity in both directions. I don't know, that you really understand like how it's all all those components are sort of intertwined and working together to form the the strength. So I don't know, there's definitely so much more that that goes on behind the scenes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I th I think so. And this is where you know we'd love it if architects did more of that. But in the same way, you guys should want it that we understand what you're trying to achieve aesthetically, or you know, you know, you talk to an engineer about bloody this this particular room layout and why it's done like that. They're just like, what are you on about, mate? Like just designing a structure. But we've I think we've got to be better at you know, we're not gonna I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be good at that because that's not the way my brain works. Yeah, but I sure as shit want to be able to understand what's your you guys are thinking about.
SPEAKER_05:Simple minds. I do agree 100% what you're saying though, Joel, that we need to probably better understand the engineering as well. Because I think we want it to work for us, but often don't understand it well enough to enable it to work for us, if you know what I mean. And I think that a lot of the time that's because we've either come up or we've worked with in the past, or maybe your experience is only with those solution-based kind of engineering outfits. And so you've never had that opportunity to really like intrinsically understand how this thing goes together. And all you're caring about is whether it gets consent, you know, whereas rather than the like you know, the fundamentals of the actual performance of the thing, and even in you know, completely honestly, I've I mean I've been working in the profession for over a decade now, and I've only really started paying attention, like serious attention to deflection recently, because I've realized how much it actually matters. And you know, and it was the amount of and all it took was one project where the floor was just a bit flexy and clients didn't like, you know, it was fine, the thing's not gonna fall down, but it was a bit bouncy, right? And and that was enough for me to go, oh should I actually need to properly understand this thing?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think it's topical because I think one of the things I've been thinking, like literally last two, three months is and I've just been interested to get your guys' feedback, but I'm I'm wondering if there might be like a quite a simple course sort of thing that I can put together on sort of structural basics for architects and just be able to, I think, just really in simplistic terms, just explain some of that stuff. Because I kind of feel like if there's more understanding there in the in the industry, and in the same way, it would be awesome if like there was an equivalent course back for engineers. It's just like, hey, how do we how do we close this gap and and and um start to generate more appreciation for each other and what um what we're trying to achieve? I reckon there's definitely space for it.
SPEAKER_05:If you go back to even uh the tertiary educations sector, we very if ever. I mean, I think we did we did what well you kind of do that one structural paper each structural coordination paper a year that we did at university, but it's so high level that really like the fundamental our fundamental knowledge of it is like gravity loadings and deflection, and that's about it, right?
SPEAKER_06:So I nailed it though, because my older brother is a structure engineer at the time. So he would literally teach me the fundamentals, I guess, things you were talking about, and it was so helpful. It definitely went over my head for a lot of it.
SPEAKER_05:But we did that, we did that coordination thing at university because we we individually had to really think about it. But then as soon as you get into the professional sector, it's like you stick to your lane, I'll stick to my lane, you know, and we're not gonna we know we're not gonna harrow each other, we'll just do do what we do. Whereas actually I think it's way more important that from a professional sense that we're working together more and understanding each other more to get better outcomes.
SPEAKER_06:I think like we have an engineer that we work with for just everything, and we have a really good working relationship. After listening to you, Joel, like I can definitely see like that that also has like limitation limitations where we're obviously not trying to like push the engineering to its maximum capacity and perhaps like dropping the ball on the potential for each design outcome. But it's a comfortable relationship. There's importance in that as well, don't it's like the communication is you know really good, which is what makes it so functional, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:I think people nailing fundamentals takes you a long way, right? If it's communication's great and you kind of get the solutions you need, then that's really good. But I think another thing I was just thinking then as as you were you guys were both talking, is it wasn't it wasn't all that long ago that the architect and the engineer were the same person.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's what I did my thesis on. Right? Yeah, so you did your thesis on it. So it wasn't like in the annals of history, yeah, it's a long time ago to us, you know, or whatever, we've been roaming the earth not that many years, but like in the annals of history, like it wasn't that long ago the architect and the engineer were the same thing. It's only sort of in recent last few hundred years or whatever that it's got gone gone divergent.
SPEAKER_05:So But then you look at and then you but then you look at architects who have a very strong either were engineers or have a very strong understanding of engineering. And then immediately jumps to mine is like Santiago Calatrava and his work, you know, it's so phenomenal because he's able to think like an engineer, but as an architect, you know. There's a reason that his stuff uh, you know, works in the way that it does, is because he's looking at it from a creatively practical mind, not mindset, which is pretty impressive, really. And there's not that many people that approach it that way these days, I'd say.
SPEAKER_00:That's rare. But it sort of almost highlights the opportunity, you know. If we can close that gap, right, we don't we're that we're there, if we can close it to that, you think about we what you can achieve. This thing is.
SPEAKER_05:And we're not saying that we're not saying that we have to we have to we're not saying I have to understand the calculations, but it's just like you said before, the it's just the fundamentals, right? It's the it's the basic knowledge that enables that higher level of understanding of how this thing goes together.
SPEAKER_00:And even better if you can get a tip, like imagine imagine getting early contractor involvement on stuff where you're bringing the build the buildability aspect into it as well. If you if if you if you all just understand each other a bit better, and actually a big part of it's respect, right? I want to respect you guys as architects and your skill set, but I want to be respected as an engineer, and the builders also want to be respected, and we've got to give respect to them, and we've each got our role to play, but it's flipping it's so often it's like corners, yeah, that's my priority, that's my priority, and then we're scrapping it out. Actually, let's just take a step back. What we're trying to achieve, how can we get on the same page to achieve a good outcome, right? Because all of the best buildings I've been involved in it, they reflect the professional consensus of the design of the design and contractor. Yeah. See what I mean? Like they're always the best buildings, right? If it's just one lead consultant, it's got to be my way or the highway, they're crap outcomes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Often and and that's why, I mean, like Ben, you your entire business model is the maring of the the the builder and the architecture side. And I've worked with a lot of clients that are builders themselves, and they're my they're my favourite clients, they're the best projects because you know you're getting that fundamental understanding from day one. But you're you know, if you add the engineer into that, then it's just that extra level of intricacy and and the project's just gonna be that much better. There you go, Ben. You just gotta address the engineer.
SPEAKER_06:Go do an engineering degree.
SPEAKER_00:Go do an engineering degree, mate. I don't have it in me, I don't think. What one of the bits that's a major problem in the industry is that we we like we straight away make an assumption about the the other party and what they're gonna be like. And that w we start from an adversarial position normally.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like we've had it heaps. I'm just saying to the guys, like people hate engineers. Why do they hate why do they hate us? Or it but it's it and it's not like it's us, like it's you know, you joked about at the start, you know, like we moan we moan about architects, architects moan about builders, builders moan about and we all do it to each other, but we all start from this place of like it's ad it's adversarial, it's like assuming that this is a good thing.
SPEAKER_05:I think it's engineers just never deliver drawing sits on top.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well that doesn't help. That doesn't help though. Stop it. Sorry, I had to get it. No, no, no, no, no, no, it's all good.
SPEAKER_00:It's all good. But I think I think uh it to me I always think of it as opportunity. You do need you know, you do need people to want to come together and and have that have that outlook, you know. Oh, totally.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think I mean I think it's probably a pretty good summary. We'll probably wrap things up, even there, Joel.
SPEAKER_06:Well, actually, hold on, hold on. Pon's got some the most important questions you got to ask. Go for it. Gotta um, you know, capitalise on the opportunity. Joe, Joel, I need to know what is the biggest cantilever you've designed. There we go. That basically if you've designed a big cantilever, you should just put that at your opening page on your website and you'll be flooded with work, surely.
SPEAKER_00:We've done we've done we have done four meters and it was a floor, so that was pretty that was pretty there. Look good. But I can't it did it. It does look amazing because it's literally like a box going that way, and then a box going that way, and it's cancelled ring out four meters, and it's got a really great it's got a really great aspect out into the ocean stuff. But I think but then what I'd I'd balance out by saying like the actual engineering solution wasn't it was quite it's quite no, it's quite basic, it's quite basic. It was beams, it was beams, you know.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, yeah. I was I was like we could just you know have another podcast and just just talk about how to achieve a great cantilever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Uh that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:I mean that's yeah, you can, and there's always ways of ways of doing it. But um yes, there's there's skill involved. That was quite tricky because it was a floor, so if it's a roof, it's it's a lot a lot more lightly loaded. When it's a floor, you've got more load on there, so you've got to be gotta be quite careful. But I think it yeah, I think it led to quite a good outcome.
SPEAKER_05:Do you have a preference for steel or timber or concrete?
SPEAKER_00:There's obviously a growing trend in the industry towards towards timber, which I think is which I think is great. Um I have a more wider outlook, which is just that um it should be the it should be the right material for right job for the right job and the and the given constraints, and I'm less sort of I'm less sort of it must be timber at all, you know, for for all costs. Timber might be the right answer. Timber might absolutely be the right answer, but there's other scenarios where it's not for for for other reasons. And I think we're we're we're in that place where we're trying to um yeah, I just guess understand what what what's the what the drivers are and try and make the best decision that we can. There's some amazing obviously there's some amazing timber timber products and stuff out there and that innovation keeps keeps growing, but then sometimes you meet a reality like if you've got a four-meter cantileva floor, you're um pretty tough to do that one out of timber.
SPEAKER_05:I'm not doing that out of timber.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, just like just straight up, you know, and you it's sort of say out say it how it is a bit. Um quite yeah, just think it's uh each project on its merits. Like we've done CLT, PLT, sips, we're doing all of that stuff. Like there's some of the LVL products are amazing.
SPEAKER_06:I was in Sydney last weekend and a friend of ours was talking about how they but this is getting real technical, maybe we should talk about this after, but how that all of their concrete floors and their high-rise buildings are all post-tension.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_06:We don't do that in this country. It was so interesting. He was walking me through the process, and I was like, holy moly, that's so cool. They basically like string wire in grids through the concrete and then bunction it to the perimeter. And then you don't you the the you just don't need any support.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's super clever because it's kind of basically saying it basically says, look, concrete's really good in compression. Let's really wind the thing up so that when load comes on, we actually never reach a point where it's intentional, we only just reach a point it's intention, so you can get that much more span out of it. So it's really clever, and things like that, you don't want that kind of innovation to die, just with the with the trend towards it just having to be timber or whatever. Like we've still we've still got to get balance in the mix of it all, I think, where we're making the best decisions for for a given project. And I just feel like every project is different. And we've done loads of like you know, we we did a mountain hut and we did it purely in timber, and it was the right solution because they had it prefabricated, yeah, pre-fabricated, and we had it helicoptered in. So it was an absolutely amazing solution because then the brass monkey monkey the brass monkey, yeah. Yeah, cool. Nice. And it and it like the feedback was, and it that that's actually such a great example of where it can work well. So we collaborated with uh Graeme Jacobs, he was the architect, and then we we had the builder involved uh really early on, and like we we we quite quickly understood look, the main constraint is how do we get this thing on site is 1600 metres up, right? So that's like the main driver, right? How can we do this thing? And he flipping prefab these panels um at his place, and then they got and craned in, and it it went together so well, but you see that decision was back there, you know, like all the way back concept, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The beginning, yeah. That's such a great thing. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, and it um, you know, it's just like the feeling around it is just one of just real satisfaction amongst the team because we just know that well, I suppose we know we've nailed it.
SPEAKER_05:Like it's it's it's proof of concept. Projects with the proof of concept is about hands down the most satisfying, I reckon.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and there's so many ways we could have done that. We could have had steel in there, we could have had I don't know, it could have been all sorts, and and there's there's been other scenarios where all that sort of thing has not gone well, built in situ, like trying to build it at 1600 metres. Well, you know, you can do that, but it's if you get you know, you're bound to get some pretty gnarly weather weather conditions that's gonna put the kibosh on that. Whereas if you just got this panelised thing and you can put it together in a in a in in in in a really short space of time, it's a clever solution, right? And that's what I mean, I think.
SPEAKER_06:Imagine if the um if the engineering profession actually like started before the architect, so engineers get in there, they design the engineering, what makes sense for the building though better. And then the building comes along, then the architect comes along and designs around the engineering.
SPEAKER_00:This has the potential to make me sound high and mighty, but the problem with it, right, with that, is we were to build square boxes, right? That's what so in all seriousness, this is this is literally how I see it. Like I talked to.
SPEAKER_06:But Gustav Eiffel, he was an engineer, right? Eiffel Tower, amazing. Some of my favourite architectures like designed by engineers.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's a good reminder almost to finish on is I would say to team, we need each other.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You guys need us, but we sure as shit need you. Like we don't want bo I don't want boring buildings.
SPEAKER_05:No, no, no. We don't want square boxes. Unless I'm nice square boxes.
SPEAKER_00:We don't, we don't. We don't. We need you guys to be we need you to be creative, and we need you to understand what we're up against sometimes and just let's come together and let's flip and come up with a solution together. Like it's not rocket science, but let's do it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's it. Awesome, man. Well, thanks very much, Joel. That's been yeah, that's been a great chat. Uh we absolutely pretty much exactly the way I was hoping it would. That was a good company. I really enjoyed it. Like, I'm not sure what I'm saying.
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