Design Principles Pod
Architecture. A hot topic, a buzz word, a realm for the rich and famous, or the thing that your step uncle does? We will be unpacking the good, the bad and the downright reality of the architectural and construction industry. With insights from industry professionals and personal anecdotes from our three hosts Ben, Gerard and Sam, you will be given a look behind the closed pages of those fancy looking moleskins. Tune in and redline out.
Design Principles Pod
Shared Ground: Architects, Interiors & Better Buildings
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Late decisions are the real budget blowouts, and they’re usually a symptom of the wrong team structure. We’re joined by Verity Lawrence and Lou Stringer, two interior designers working across Central Otago and Queenstown, to unpack what genuine architect interior designer collaboration looks like when it starts early and stays respectful. The conversation moves past glossy “before and after” talk and into the practical mechanics: when designers get brought in, who builds the consultant team, and why overlap between disciplines is where the magic often happens.
We also get honest about the messy side of the building industry in New Zealand. Verity and Lou share renovation horror stories where projects go sideways, clients are traumatised, and designers end up doing far more than finishes and furniture. We talk about trust, communication, and how dropping ego (and the old guarded approach to ideas and IP) can lead to smoother builds and better outcomes that everyone is proud to put their name on.
From there, we zoom right in to the intimacy of interior design. The best homes come from understanding daily rituals: storage habits, morning routines, family life, and the little details that make a space feel like it fits. We tackle trends without snobbery, asking how to borrow what you love while still designing for longevity, proportion, and material quality so you’re not stuck regretting today’s “hot” choice tomorrow.
Finally, we dig into what “interiors” even means, why the public still mixes up interior designer, decorator, and interior architect, and how ethics, ongoing learning, and clear value help clients make safer decisions. If you care about better residential design, smarter renovations, and a built environment that feels coherent, hit play, then subscribe, share the episode with a mate, and leave a review so more Kiwi clients and designers can find it.
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Welcome And The Case For Collaboration
SPEAKER_01Hello, hello. Welcome back to the Design Principles Podcast. This week we've got a great chat with Verity Lawrence and Lou Stringer, two interior designers from Central Targo region. We chat collaboration between our two sides of the profession and how working together from the get-go can lead to better results and projects. It's not all roses though. We do chat about a few horror stories where renovations have gone awry, but we also focus on trends and the way that working together can result in a great architectural and interior outcome. Tune
Meet Verity And Lou
SPEAKER_01in and enjoy Thanks for joining me today, Verity and Lou to chat about interior architecture and interior design. If you guys wouldn't mind, just a quick introduction of yourselves for the listeners out there.
SPEAKER_02I have been working in the industry coming up 20 years, I think, which sounds ridiculous. I studied interior architecture and then I worked in Europe and then I came to New Zealand about 10 years ago and started working for Kavanagh. That was my initial in to New Zealand and getting residency. And since then I've worked for a couple of designers, and I went out on my own in 2017. I've also got another business which Sam is OFA with, which is the architecture and design library. And myself and another interior designer, we set up a co-working shared resource for the design and construction community. So we get to have all the architects, all the builders, all the interior designers, all in one space, all collaborating together. But from my design perspective, I work across commercial and residential. And as Lou and Sam will attest to, it is an interesting environment, stressful at times. I know I question it on the regular, but I love seeing a project come together at the end. You have those little moments of why you do it.
SPEAKER_01And Lou yourself?
SPEAKER_03Hello, thank you for having me. I'm Lou, and I have Said Studio, which is primarily a residential design studio based in Queenstown, which has been around since six years now, which has gone quite fast. Studied over in the UK, and then four years in London, and some time in Melbourne and Vancouver before moving back to New Zealand in the middle of COVID and thinking, great, what a good idea to start a design studio. And it's kind of just gone from strength to strength. It's been really nice coming back to the New Zealand environment and getting back into the swing of things, especially down in Queenstown. Been fortunate enough to work across a range of residential and commercial projects, but definitely leaning more into the resie sector at the moment and have the opportunity to work with some really awesome clients and architects and builders as well. So it's a really nice topic today, so we can really dig into that because I think it's just such a a beautiful testament to the whole industry in New Zealand at the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah,
Getting Designers In Early
SPEAKER_01I mean the whole crux of what I wanted to chat about today was around collaboration and Verity with the AD Library as sort of like that focal point for collaboration. It's a good starting point. Because I don't know about you guys, and it's nice that you have a cross-section of residential through to commercial, but I find that there isn't as much collaboration through our two professions, despite them being completely in parallel as there should be. And I think that the built environment in New Zealand suffers a lot from that. I mean it suffers a lot from from many things, but particularly kind of everything, even even from the specimen stuff through to bespoke residential, all the way through to commercial, I think a better collaboration between architecture and interiors could definitely have a bit a bit more of an impact on that built environment. I mean, how much are you guys collaborating with architects or even other designers throughout those design stages?
SPEAKER_03Historically, for me, it has been quite sort of siloed. We'll be brought on a lot later in the design phase or the project phase. Certainly, in a lot of cases, showing up on site and construction is very much underway, which you know poses its own problems if there are a few things that we might want to work around, but the decisions have already been made. But I think certainly there's been a bit of a shift in the last sort of year or so, and we are have I've been seeing that we've been getting brought on a lot earlier in the project sort of conceptual side of things, which has been really beneficial. I'm not sure what has prompted that shift, but it is being driven a lot by the clients now, which I think has been quite rewarding because then they get a really holistic outcome from the get-go rather than treading on eggshells around each of the professions, whether it's the builder that's brought the client to the architect and the designer, or the architect that's brought the client to the designer and the, you know, that sort of triangle of professions. It's not like super linear about where one starts and stops, but that kind of overlap I've been seeing a lot more recently, which has been really rewarding and exciting.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. Very have you noticed that same change?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I think I think let's say 50% of my projects at the moment are in collaboration with an architect. And like, like at the start, like literally at the start of the the job, I have been, I've brought architects and uh builder and a landscaper in at the very start. And then I've also been brought in from the other side. And I wonder if it's to do, you know, there's so much focus nowadays on the interior, which I think was a lovely, happy circumstance from COVID because we spent so much time at home and we realized how important the interiors became. And, you know, we have all this social media and Pinterest. It's it's literally around us all the time. And so I wonder if more and more people are being like, I want that, but I don't know how to achieve it. So therefore, I will employ an interior designer to help me achieve it. Maybe there's more education because we have access to, well, there's more education on everything, but you know, through Instagram, we're constantly being educated by, we get the opportunity to educate, you know, and to be able to say to people, it's really beneficial if you bring us in. It's even more beneficial if you bring us in at the very, very start. We can save you money. We can make sure, as you say, you get a whole holistic view about the whole thing. And then I also wonder with architects, and it's across the whole construction industry, there's there was this element, and maybe there still is, of competition, you know, like the architect against the builder, the builder against the interior designer. Whereas now maybe people have gone, actually, by using everybody, we're getting a really good result that we can all put our name on. So why not bring in a designer? Why not bring in the landscape team? And instead of having, say, a builder or an architect trying to do everything, everyone has their own little path to give, you know, their expertise.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that the focusing on your area of expertise things is slightly important. Even this morning, before we jumped on the chat, I've been working on a project in Queenstown and I'm tearing my hair out because we're working with really difficult ground, and I'm focusing all my attention at the moment is on cut batters and angles and all this sort of thing, and looking at ground conditions and geotechnical reports and everything. And you know, I'm weeks and weeks and weeks in the weeds on ground. And it's and I can see my fee just disappearing as you're putting all this attention into this one specific specific area. What that's resulting in is it leaves me very little room within my feet to now focus on interiors or now focus on other aspects of the build, be that um mechanical systems or things like that, that I was hoping that I'd have fee for. And so when you bring in these specialists that you kind of dial down, focus on your in on your one area, don't get distracted by the stuff on the outside. I think what it ultimately leads to is just like a way better result.
SPEAKER_02You can see it. And you can, like I always say, if you come away from a job and everyone is still speaking to each other, you know that the house or the commercial building reflects it. Like it, you can feel that in the building. And so, and so to that, like bringing the right team together as well is so important.
SPEAKER_01How often
Building A Dream Team
SPEAKER_01are you, in terms of bringing that team together and that idea of collaboration, Lou, you touched on you've found that it's being very much more client-driven, that need for collaboration or those, you know, those multiple parties. Are you guys finding that it's the clients that are engaging the architect and the interior, architect or designer, landscaper, or whatever, independently? Or are you finding that the clients are going to a builder or an architect or yourselves and then you're creating the team or the architects creating the team? Is is that usually how you find that evolves?
SPEAKER_03I think if for us personally, we've we've kind of had a split where it's either they've gone to the architect or to the builder. In the cases where they've come straight to us, it's a lot later in the process, and it's you know, they're either in construction or it's a renovation, and so they might not necessarily need an architect or think they need an architect, and they might. But often, like certainly with the the projects that we have active at the moment, we have two that were brought through us through the builder, and they shape the architecture uh and the design team, and then two from an architect that has kind of their kind of go-to designers and landscapers and builders to build that list of really great relationships that they've built over the years, which has been quite nice in the sense that they're not the exact same teams, and so it might be us and the architect, but the builder and the landscape are slightly different, or us and the builder, different architects, different landscapes. So it's it's a nice little puzzle. But to what Verity was saying earlier before about everyone still, you know, talking at the end of the project, I think that's what we're seeing a lot more now is having that solid foundation of everyone being a team from day dot leading to such a successful project.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's that common goal, right? Coming in regardless of who you are as a consultant on a project. If you come in late, engineers are the same, interiors are the same, landscape hate it because they're always the last poor guys. There's always not not dissent, but you know, there's there's that annoyance, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always feel like there's that annoyance of being like, why don't you just talk to me earlier? We could have solved this, we're chasing our tail now, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it is interesting, you know, that you're saying that foundation, you're seeing it in real time, creating that initial foundation is actually resulting in a much smoother process. And it makes perfect sense to me. And we do the same with all of our projects. We have a consultant base, a a collection of consultants that we love to work with. We'll try and work with them on on every every or all projects. Because you know what you're going to get, you know who you're gonna who you're involved with, you know your communication styles, you know your design styles, and it just creates this nice cohesive project team.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think like something that we're sort of finding is you know, everyone is so strong in their own disciplines, and that's a wonderful thing. But it's almost in the overlap between disciplines is kind of where the magic has been happening. So, like, Sam, you might have a really incredible detail, but can we translate that into the interiors and it kind of just lifts everything which maybe you hadn't seen because you're focused on the structure and the exterior, and you know, we come in from the interiors lens, right? And just make those little tweaks and adjustments that lift it all together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. We say to people at at the AD Library here, we're like, we're here to help you create your dream team. And it just makes such a difference. Everyone really enjoys the project. No one's worried about like picking up the phone to have maybe a tough conversation, something's gone wrong, or there's a problem because everyone, as you said, has the same goal. Like everyone wants to create the the better thing. There's none of this naysayer or blaming about what's gone wrong because you all came in to have that original goal.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. And it almost feels effortless when you've like, you're all aligned from the first project team briefing for this outcome for the client. And so, you know, working towards that goal through the lens of like the best outcome for the client, just with your own discipline lens on it as well. I think it's like the that holistic aspect of a really considered project outcome.
SPEAKER_01It's really nice hearing this because my kind of the one of the reasons why I wanted to have the conversation is that I'd say historically, and it and a a lot of this positive conversation I feel like is a resultant of, like you hate guys have said in the this last year or so, that far more focus or commitment on creating a better team. Do
Dropping Ego And Building Trust
SPEAKER_01you think that's a result of there being issues in the past? Because to me, that has been the case. People have been brought in at different stages, or people have been brought in altogether, but there's been this really guarded nature around IP or design styles and things like that. And I'd feel like as a prof a profession as a whole, architecture historically, you know, we always put ourselves on this like enormous pedestal and an ego pedestal, to be honest. And it is really detrimental to yeah, yeah. Look, I'll I'll be I'll be blunt. Your words, but it's been really detrimental to the reputation of the profession, in my opinion, and I think really detrimental ultimately to projects. And I think where that shift is happening is maybe we have lightened our position or our uh opinion of our position a little bit, and so we're far more welcoming to other things because I think what we're starting to realize is that we can't do it all. We like to think that we can, but ultimately things suffer. Uh, and so having that team around us to help support us is good, and the industry as a whole, not just architects to others, but everybody is far more in each other's pockets in a positive way because there is more collaboration, there is more integration, there's more information, like you said, Verity, available out there. So we're not kind of like holding on to those things ourselves and not letting other people in. I feel like that's a big shift. Have you do you do you agree? Do you feel like there has been in the past that sort of like guarded nature and that's that the the walls almost crumbling down a little bit?
SPEAKER_02Completely. And I think I think we still find it, but you may, if you notice, it's it's more the old school. It's it's the older generation. I think across every single industry, collaboration is becoming key. People are seeing the pluses of it. And and to speak to that, you know, that old rhetoric of the architect, architect being the top, top dog, because they got brought in at the very, very start, and and absolutely you're doing the most incredible job, but everyone else can also do the most incredible job. And I know for myself, like I've had a couple of clients who've brought me in later, and then they've seen the actual value of an interior designer or an interior architect, and them saying to us, the next house that we do, you guys are the first people we call. Yeah. Interesting. I think, I think they see the I think interior designers have potentially always been more collaborative because we've been brought in later. And so we've had to like tiptoe our way in and be super pleasant and super malleable to be able to be allowed to like fit into where we're allowed to fit into. I I love watching the collaboration and the space that we've created here. You know, I sit in my office and we have like all these people sitting at lunch. We have architects and landscape designers and interior designers and builders all having lunch together, all grabbing a coffee. And sometimes I'm like, God, I'd love to record that conversation, like that little snippet where someone was like, Oh, I have a question. Can I just ask you, if I was doing a watering system, what should I be thinking about as an architect at the very start?
SPEAKER_01It's it's it's just it's great. It's awesome. I'm looking forward to when Dene's up and running because this is what I'm holding out for. I know, I know, I know. Do you find then like on that, you know, this idea of being brought in or the people being brought in at different stages? For the projects that you're brought in first, and then either you're creating the design team or you're in in a sense leading the design. Has that design or the interior design led direction? Is that been well received?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, from from my respect it it has, but purely probably because I'm bringing in the same people. Sure.
When Renovations Go Sideways
SPEAKER_02So I'm working with the same, like I have a core group of people that I like to work with now.
SPEAKER_03I find when I'm getting bought in to at the at the fore to lead the project, often it's either for a renovation or for something that has slightly gone peer-shaped. And again, to Verity's point, you bring in your sort of trusted team of trades, you know, whether that be electricians, joiners, whomever. But, you know, I've just got this one project still quite fresh in the memory banks where we were given no information. It was just, you know, a renovation project. And we walked in there and there was no internal walls that separated with the builder. Uh, there had been no architect, it was a draftsman, and it had just gone so sideways. And to be fair, it was quite a shock showing up and like it was a shell. And then like starting to layer in and you know, build confidence and build that trust back up with the client and say, look, this is why we've chosen this team of trades, because we know they can deliver, we know how we can kind of get this back on track, and so it's almost not damage control, but to a certain degree, a lot of hand holding. And and I find when it's more of an interior design-led overarching project, it's a lot more kid glove handling, sort of very gentle shaping to get to the end product, whereas it's less of a sort of damage control situation when the whole team is together from the start.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if you've found that verity, but it's just a nice 100%.
SPEAKER_02Like you're literally the client's traumatized. Yeah, and it's just a lot of like it's almost like therapy sessions and like 100% things that we know about our clients. I had a client a couple of years ago, and and I got brought in after everybody, but I was the only one who would respond to her. So the architect fell out, the builder fell out, and she was ringing me weekly in tears. And she's like, I don't know what to do. The electrician won't come back on site, the the builder won't come back on site, he won't answer my emails. And I'd only been brought in, I think, to do window treatments. And then I ended up doing, having to do so much more, but I nearly ended up having to do a project management counseling and project management of everybody else because I was like, we can't leave this poor woman. In how can you just walk away? It was horrendous. And she said, and I've heard it on you know several times over my career, I'm never building again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't ever want a client to say that if they've worked with me. I want them to be like, hmm, right, this is awesome. I've learned so much stuff. Like, next job, let's bring all these people back together and create something even better.
SPEAKER_01On the flip side of that, we've had a project in Queenstown where we had everybody involved from day one and very smoothly run. And it was the opposite. The client at the end of it was like, You've re you've restored my faith in the building industry that things can be done well. And we're like, So good. The best response you could ever have. So good. Totally. I mean, that's the dream. I remember when I started out in architecture, my first at my first practice, uh, my mentor at the time said to me, Do you want to be a registered architect? And I was like, Yeah, obviously that's the end goal, it's why I'm here. Kind of thing is like, are you prepared to be a marriage counsellor?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. I guess so true. Mediator.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I literally have conversations where I'm like, okay, husband, you won that battle. This is her one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I do you guys find as well with that that kind of more personal involvement, personal touch, I feel like that's far more prevalent in the interior realm because your kind of involvement with the clients and their decision making is far more personal than it is for us, for instance, when we're focusing on maybe the form and shape of the building, a lot of that is dictated by sight and landscape and ground conditions. And they'll give us preferences for a material palette, maybe, but it's less the options are far less varied, probably, than what you get to deal with. Internally, and you're working down to the minute of you know fabrics and door handles and all these sorts of things, whereas we're kind of dealing with bigger picture stuff. Do you find that that close collaboration is quite difficult because you are so in each other's pockets? And do you find that clients have try and or try and have far more of a say in the design process than than maybe they did with us?
Designing For How You Live
SPEAKER_03We're getting into spaces that you have your everyday rituals, right? You've got your morning rituals, how you interact with your family, your pets, the spaces. Again, it kind of hits on those notes of like the light and the architecture and things, because you know, if there's a beautiful window detail or morning terrace that the architect has created, how do we integrate that into like the morning coffee ritual, for example? But certainly then like again into the real nitty-gritty, you know, how do you like to get up in the morning? Where's your outfit, chest of drawers, walk-in row, bedside table, all of these really intimate personal details that are obviously, you know, you get a sense of that through the architecture and the briefing, but it's like it's so kind of like distilled into how do you, as the individual, as a family, as a couple, whatever the circumstances are, how do you move through the spaces each and every day? How do you currently do that? How do you want to do that? You know, it's it's it is a very intimate process. And at the end of it, like you have these incredible relationships with the clients and the wider team, but certainly like you know these people so so closely, how they live, like you know, how they like to go to bed, where they put their slippers, all of that kind of thing. It's um it's it's a real honor to be embedded into that level of detail and intimacy with someone. Because I think when you have that trust to sort of glean those little snippets of information, it creates a stronger outcome. But like, it's just so it's just such a wonderful experience.
SPEAKER_02The more they tell you, which sometimes you don't always need, but you create a very personal, personable home, you know, like you say their their bedroom ritual. And and we end up having some very intimate conversations with clients, you know, down to do you guys want two shower heads? Do you shower together? You know, like all of those little details that you want them to be in their home, being like this home perfectly fits who I am and who I'm going to grow into being.
SPEAKER_01Do you find then do people come through that process? You talk about the intimacy of it, and I'd say that people come with very strong, developed ideas, probably, or preconceptions or concepts of how they want to live, how they want things to look. Do you find you battle against that, particularly around the idea of trends? That's probably more dominant in your guys' profession than it is in ours. Ours is more like movement-based rather than trend-based. But do you find that trying to steer clients into an idea of rather than it being trend-focused, it being purpose-focused is the way that you both have eloquently put it. Do you find that that's quite a hard discussion or hard process to work through?
SPEAKER_02I I think once they start trusting you and they start seeing, I think it would be like going to a stylist for clothing. So they will see you and they will talk to you and they will look at your body shape and they will see how you actually live and work. And when we start having those conversations with the clients, you're like, okay, I know that you want to have this really beautiful entrance. And you don't think you need any storage. But every time I've come into your current home, your shoes are scattered all over the entrance. And, you know, and this is a particular client, and if he listens, he'll know who I'm talking to. He he was like, Oh, but in my new house, I'll I'll I'll put my shoes away. And I was like, You won't. So let's make it really easy for you to put your shoes away. And we'll hide it into a concealed compartment in your beautiful entrance. And so I think as a good designer, yes, you're listening to them, but you're making it so much better and so much more usable. And to go with the trend thing, I think you can have a client coming in and being like, oh, you know, browns and pinks and burgundies are all a trend at the moment. So let's do that. But if I go into their wardrobe, I'll be like, you don't like those colors. Like, well, how do you know? I'm like, because you don't have a single one of those colours in your wardrobe. You've never worn one of those colours to my meeting. You don't like those colors.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it's a difficult thing with trends because everybody goes, and this is a bag on Pinterest on Instagram and everything. You're just fed all this visual information about what's hot, what's hot, what's hot. And so everyone feels like that. That's what I want, that's what I need, that's what everybody else has, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you think about it, it's so immediate. We're not creating immediacy, we're creating timelessness. You'd hope that particular for regardless of the architecture or the work that we're doing, these projects are here for 50, 100 years, you know. And you are you're ideally not having to reinvent the wheel in the lifetime of that home. The trend thing's interesting because it's hard to push clients away from it. But then when you start talking about the longevity of the project and the idea that what's hot now is not going to be hot in five years' time and you're going to be sitting in your house with all your black tapware going, damn, I made a bad decision.
SPEAKER_02Black tapware. Ugh. But is it but is it and but it's where you can line up the trends, right? You can be like black tapware is 2000 and whatever. Yellow walls are whatever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I I like I think the the trend discussion is interesting because I don't think trends are inherently bad. It's it kind of speaks to, you know, what's going on culturally. And I don't think that's necessarily a negative. However, we are force-fed all of this information and especially with social media, the trends just change in the blink of an eye. And so it's like, okay, you like this trend. What do you like about this trend? What can we kind of extrapolate and figure out is landing? And then, you know, from all of that, asking whether or not those aspects will still feel relevant, not to the client or the trend or whatever, but to the home and the people that are living in it. You know, you might have young kids. Is that going to work, you know, in 10 years if you're still in the home and the kids have gone? Are you still going to like those aspects? Are they still going to be functional and relevant for you when it's just the two of you? If, you know, the kids have all gone and it's like for me, it's is that timelessness is kind of in the proportion and the quality of the materials and like the authenticity of the family living in the space. And maybe they do like that burgundy tile or you know, whatever, and that's continued, and she still loves it in 10, 15 years, but it's a one like little detail out of a broader trend that we've managed to pull in, if that makes sense, rather than it being like I love an entirely red wine-colored room, or you know, how can that be extrapolated?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, how does it make you feel what it what part of it is it that you love?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, totally.
What "Interiors" Really Means
SPEAKER_01There's probably there's a misconception between what you guys are doing, interior architecture, and then interior designs, maybe like in in between, and then there's decorator. Do you find that you're sort of lumped in that one big cohesive, overarching tidal of interiors? Or do you feel that there is respect and acknowledgement of where each one of those professions stand within that interior realm? Because the decorator side of it is very much in the moment of the like client wants this, I'll give them that. It's of the moment, it's of the trend, we'll redo that room in five years' time kind of vibe. Whereas what you guys are speaking to is far more longevity in in the project. Do you f do you think there's a struggle there within the industry of being lumped in with that same kind of certainly, yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_03Like I had a very infuriating conversation with someone from the bank the other day, of all things, who they were trying to like, you know, in the company's register, you have like categories of what industry you're in. And there's a very clear one for interiors in the company's register, but the bank had nothing. So it was either I was an architect or I was a decorator, which to him was like a jib stopper decorator possible. Right. Okay, so there's like this huge gap in the middle. What is this speaking to? Is this like a broader statement on the interiors industry? I don't know. I think I think there are so many different perceptions of the word interiors and like whatever word comes after that, people don't really listen to or pay that much attention to. I think it's not for me, it's not so much about like the second word after that. It's more like the tasks and the skills and the experience that I bring to the word interiors and how that actually is different for each project. So, like sometimes we're doing a little bit more interior styling and decoration, and other times we're leaning really into the interior architecture side of things with no furniture or styling. And so, yeah, it's it's not the wild west, but there's a lot of interpretation that can be laid upon it.
SPEAKER_02And I think our because people will ask me what I do, and particularly the whole interior architect term, particularly when I started studying it, it it literally only existed in America. I think it had only been around for one or two years. And so my college course was so fresh, and we were only taught by architects. And so that is that's my educational background. And so it wasn't until I kind of started working for other people that I was, you know, I didn't have the interior knowledge that I have now. I had a very spatial awareness knowledge. And when people ask me what I do now, I'm like, I can do everything from, you know, look at the structure of walls, but you know, if it's major, we're bringing in an architect or an engineer, down to picking the teaspoon for the cut nature. It's such a huge, it's huge what we do. And I don't I I don't think people respect it. You know, because that that teaspoon somewhere along the way was thought about, you know, everything was thought about in relation to that war. You know, everything was cohesively thought about the in from top down.
Training Ethics And Ongoing Learning
SPEAKER_01It's interesting speaking about the education thing, Verity, because I'm involved with uh Otago Polytechnic Architecture School down here in Dunedin now and sat in on meetings and and discussions around course direction and things recently. And they're kind of battling with because it's so newly accredited as a master's program, they're battling with uh the idea of whether they continue with just a pure architecture stream or whether they have the option of breaking it into an interior architecture education stream. And even they were battling with the idea of how does interior and architecture actually differ from the education sense. And one of the um lecturers there, she's South African, she's an interior architect, and so studied interior architecture I think in South Africa, and so she was like there was a very clear delineation between the two professions. But if I think back to my time at Victoria, there was very little delineation between the two, and I think like you said, I interiors was focused very much spatially, but kind of let all the architected stuff go by the wayside, and I think where the benefit of it is is that that it's actually cohesive and that they understand everything like you said from the walls all the way through the teaspoon sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02And it also depends where they went to work afterwards. Like honestly, what I learned in college hasn't got me here, you know, and and Penny, my my my partner does. Penny, my business partner, she is an interior designer. And you know, sometimes I sound like I feel like I sound like a a bit of a dick saying, Oh, I'm an interior architect. And my mum said to me recently, on we were talking about it on our podcast, and and she's like, Why don't you say that you're an interior architect? Because you're an interior architect and Penny's an interior designer. And I was like, Well, literally, because I I don't want to sound like a dick, but a good interior designer has the same knowledge and and skill to do what I do. Let's say, for example, even as an architect, you ended up getting a job in a firm, but you ended up more working in the interior side of things. Does that mean you're an interior designer, or do you still have the term architect?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So it depends where you've gone since you've done your education. If you've done education.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I know that the NZRAB has, I don't know if anything's been done or that, but they have floated the idea of kind of separating the registration process in terms of the term architect. Even down to the being you can become registered as a residential architect, commercial architect, interior architect, landscape architect. There's obviously always going to be the overarching because there will be people that do have the experience or have gained the experience or do work in like every sector. But I guess what they're trying to do is not not deter people who only have experience in interiors, or I only have inter experience in residential, I only have interior experience in commercial from going for registration and becoming a registered architect. Because you can have an entire career in one sector. You don't have to, you know, be across all of it. And that I think is the struggle that we have in the architectural community is that there's this expectation that we're across everything. And because of that, we know a little about a lot. But back to the collaboration idea, it's better when you have a team that has knows a lot and is focusing on the little, you know what I mean? Because ultimately you're going to get way more expertise than you would getting somebody to try and do everything.
SPEAKER_02I also think, and the you'll probably agree with me on this, we don't have that for the interior design industry. Like we don't have, and and Penny and I have talked about even just trying to create a like set it up ourselves where you have, you know, and let's not say like interior architect, interior designer, decorator, stylist, interior enthusiast. We don't have those What's there?
SPEAKER_01That's everybody. That's everybody with Instagram and a Pinterest board.
SPEAKER_03That's that's uh that's the client's friend.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, brilliant.
SPEAKER_03And there are a lot of enthusiasts. Yeah. Every project has at least two.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But I would love to get to a point where we do have that clarification because for you guys as architects, you've got registered architects, and correct me if as if I'm wrong with any of this, registered architects, and then you have got you've got your drafts people. But you guys seem to have at least sort of figured out a top-down of who fits in where. But again, it's getting that education across to the public because you, you know, you see posts on Facebook saying, Oh, I'm looking for someone to draw up these plans, and you'll have drafts people doing it, but maybe they shouldn't be working on that job. But obviously they're cheaper. And so then people are like, Well, why would I pay an architect $250, $300, $400 an hour, but I can get a drafts person for $75 an hour?
SPEAKER_01That's a huge difficulty. You said we do have that strata of expertise and qualification within the profession, but that is a huge thing that we do struggle with is an understanding of what you get at each level, basically. And I think your money always talks at the end of the day, but at the but ultimately what you're not seeing, people take everything on face value. What you're not seeing is that that intrinsic knowledge that we have, that expertise, and also just our ability, I think, to be to work in a team and to understand how to put a team together and to collaborate and to like build this cohesive design language.
SPEAKER_02And your ongoing education. I think a lot of people miss that. It's like, well, for me to keep this qualification or this status, I have to do ongoing education. Whereas you have somebody else who did their college course 10 years ago and did nothing afterwards.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's the thing. The CPD, yeah, the CPD process I think is critical in keeping us up to date. And you're and you're right, it is that ongoing education, but also I think, and I'm not sure if there's a similar thing with the interior architect side of things, but they're, you know, we're legally bound by a code of ethics. Like there is a there's an architects act, and there's within that there's a strict guideline of what we can and can't do and what we can and can't say, and ways that we can and can't represent ourselves. And so what you're safeguarded by in going to an architect is this legal framework around the role and the responsibilities that we have, uh, which is excellent in my opinion. It means clients should have confidence in in what they're getting. So, yeah, it'd be interesting to see if there was that like that crossover into the interiors realm. Nope. Yeah, no, because I you could like you said, you could equally have somebody just come in and be like, oh, an interior enthusiast and throw this wall. Yeah, well, exactly. Get pretty rogue. Yeah. That's that, yeah. Well, that's loose horror story, right? You know, it's nice to work with a blank canvas, but not that much of a blank canvas. No, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You can see you're traumatized by it. It less so like it just sucked for them. Yeah. You know, the whole point of what brings me joy is like the outcome for the client, the finished product. That feeling where you walk in and it just the the space in the home feels amazing and you don't know why. Well it's because you had an amazing design team.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But like walking into that shell and just being like, where do we start?
SPEAKER_01You pour things, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And like picking the pieces back up. And I mean, look, it was still the good outcome. It was still a beautiful end result. But there were a lot of scars and yeah, and that sucked. That really sucked.
SPEAKER_01Do
Making Expert Design Support Affordable
SPEAKER_01you guys think that I mean a lot there's this kind of understanding, maybe misconception, I'm not really sure how to word it, but that having a large team, architects, interiors landscapes, everything is more geared towards those high budget or like big budget bespoke projects. Do you think there's scope to have that involvement from interiors architects landscapes through to lower budget projects into the spec house realm? Because I feel like that's the area we all know the successes of these beautiful high budget bespoke projects. Teams there works well, you know, because the money's there. But that middle market to lower market suffers from not having that professional input.
SPEAKER_03I think there's totally a misconception that like the more disciplines you have, the larger your bill at the end of it. But like, you know, for example, you can engage an interior designer at the start with the rest of your team and not take it much further than you know, the space planning and materials and all of that. You don't have to have a full service, you know, turnkey teaspoons situation. Yeah. But I think, you know, the most successful projects are the ones with the broader team that then have, you know, value engineering materials input from the start so that you're not scrambling when prices come back at tender and you go, my God, that tiles you know, $450. Or you know, and so the the benefit of having in you know our experience, having the team from the start is that you actually get a more aligned budgeted outcome because you know you sort of go in with eyes wide open from the start.
SPEAKER_02As you said, you don't need to bring us in for the entire thing. Like I would always say, why don't you just come and have a chat with us and tell us the areas where you are missing knowledge or information and let us fill in those gaps. But also, we can hand you enough information that maybe you can project manage that side of it, or you can source these materials, but we'll put together a lookbook for you and we'll give you some advice on where to go. Like choose the aspects of our job that you need. You don't need everything. And I find just coming from the ADL lens, people coming in and we know, we say we have these interior designers in the builders building, or we have a kitchen designer or whatever, just come and do an hour as and when you need it. You know, like you've hit this point of your project, come and have an hour. You've hit this point of this project, come and have an hour here. And I think particularly with like the group home builders, you have somebody in that position who A may not be qualified, B is working from a limited range of materials that they have on offer. And we're trying to get the group home builders to come and be part of the library B members here because they will have clients who want something above and beyond what they offer. And I we're really trying hard to get the story out that you don't need to have lots and lots of money to have an interior designer come into your job. I would say to people, when you have your plans from your architect, just get us to look over it from an interior's perspective. Like, for example, does your living room need to be an extra 200 mil wide because you want to have a particular three-seater sofa in there or the sofa that you already own? The amount of times I end up looking at plans going, that's not a, you think that's a that's not a California king bed uh bed, that's a king bed that the architect has popped in there. But that information for whatever reason wasn't said to them. And I think I f I find particularly when it's been done by a drafts person, because they've got blocks of beds and sofas and they just get thrown into the plan. And then when I measure them, I'm like, well, that's a two-seater sofa. But you thought it was a three-seater sofa.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That the tears of involvement is an interesting one, and it's something that we've played around with in our offerings as well, because we the our the whole objective of our practice is to make architectural good design available to all. And people can't necessarily afford the full r range or scope of services, but having that critical input at that critical phase of a project, be it even just like you just said, making sure the room's the right size for a particular piece of furniture, or maybe it's framing a view in a particular way, or maybe even it's just some from our perspective, like some advice on orientation of the house, if you've got an open site to make you know better access of solar gain, those minor things in the scheme of the overarching scope of our services have huge, huge project potential upsides that you know, if clients just engage you for that little bit, it can make all the difference, I think.
SPEAKER_02And save them money. Save them a lot of money.
SPEAKER_03A lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. Which seems counterintuitive, you know, but it actually in the long run it's just such a benefit for the the end result. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we all want our clients to walk away happy.
SPEAKER_01God, yeah. That's uh end of the day. And that's I mean, that's why we that's why we want to collaborate, work together, make the make the dreams come true for them all.
Closing Thoughts
SPEAKER_01Uh nice. I think that's been a really great chat. That was nice. Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you very much for jumping on.
SPEAKER_03You're very welcome. Pleasure.
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